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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant

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 Post subject: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-03 7:40 am
Age: Hatchling
Honestly, I've never been in a game where Sylvan Primordial took over and ran rampant without the aid of a Deadeye Navigator and/or Rite of Replication. While you could argue that Sylvan Primordial should be banned because it combos so well with those cards, I'd rather turn it around and ask why you're not banning the Navigator and Rite instead, as those two cards are capable of breaking every friggen card in the game that has an ETB effect, and have much more potential to ruin a fun game than a single Primordial ever could.

I could understand Primeval Titan, because it found any land and kept giving you lands until it died. Sylvan Primordial also ramps, but doesn't find any land = it doesn't combo as hard as the Titan did. And while yes, the primordial can set everyone else back a turn if you're not destroying stuff like Howling Mines or Grave Pacts, it's definitely not uncommon for someone to have a removal spell at the ready at the time you're able to cast it, just like they would for any other fatty.

So here's my question: Why on earth would you ban the Primordial over Deadeye or Rite? Is it because people are too fond of locking others down with Deadeye/Venser or Rite/Chancellor of the Annex? Or how about bouncing Chancellor of the Spires to your heart's content with Deadeye? How about a Tyrant of Discord to blow someone completely out of the game? Or how about exiling someone's stuff with Ashen Rider?
:facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:34 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-19 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
Sylvan played in every single green deck and additionally allmost everyone splashed green just for him, because it was so braindead easy. Need skill? Play green primordial.
Of course there are also many other strong cards in edh which I wouldn't ever use because they are like 1 card combos. But they don't fit in each deck as well.

Edit: and yeah, I think the format was better several years ago when pretty much only unfair cards was rhystic study, tooth and nail and sometimes other. It all started with Rise of the Eldrazi i think or somehwere there.


Last edited by Silencer on 2014-Feb-03 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:35 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Banning those cards doesn't stop recursion strategies.
See also:









And playing SP on turn 4 is miserable even if he never gets blinked.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:15 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-03 7:40 am
Age: Hatchling
If it's the LD that people are afraid of, then why not ban more LD spells to send a message? Drop hexproof fatty, cast Armageddon hurr durr easy-mode engaged.
And if it's because there isn't a "may" clause and people think it's un-fun because of that, then people should just stop running it, just like my local playgroup doesn't run mass land-destruction because it screws everyone over except for the one guy who has Privileged Position and a fatty on the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:26 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:39 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:25 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-06 10:45 pm
Age: Hatchling
DEN wasn't the primary offender in this case. Sure it was pretty darn good with Sylvan Primordial but so were a multitude of other things. Phyrexian Reclamation, Roon, Corpse Dance, Cloudshift, Crystal Shard were a few things that were also dumb. In short it's easier to ban one card than the 40-50 other things that work disgustingly well with it.

That being said believe that DEN should be banned as well due to not actually adding anything interesting to the format. But that's another argument for another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:54 am 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern
This kinda hearkens back to the age-old disagreement I've had with certain people regarding what IS and ISN'T appropriate in a particular format.

Bottom line #1: was banned because of the players who abused it for their own nefarious purposes. My own group was discussing that this card will eventually be banned even when the damn thing was SPOILED, but that didn't stop some of them from using the card in combination with other cards, including , which, IMHO, is probably next on the chopping block.

Bottom line #2: WoTC must scrutinize their use of, "enter the battlefield" abilities more closely during the design process for their sets. By itself, & SP were a bit too OP because of their ability to ramp lands onto the battlefield, and that was why they fell to abuse. Here's a wild guess: If the land cards just went to your hand, both cards would probably still be legal, since you would need ANOTHER card on the field, like , or to take advantage of the extra land drops you now have.

Bottom line #3: The players HAVE to be more aware of the cards they put into their decks. The way I look at it, if a card (or color, in the case of my EDH group. HEHE) ends up being banned it's because the players can't be trusted to put the welfare of their group ahead of their own ambitions. Our group decided to ban blue because we came to a consensus that it was the most overpowered of all the colors when looked at from an EDH perspective.

This is the list of the top 25 most-popular Commanders in the last 365 days, according to http://www.metamox.com. The cards in red are part-blue (the list is current as of TODAY):

Kaalia of the Vast
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
*Maelstrom Wanderer
Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
* Sharuum the Hegemon
* Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
* Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
* Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
* Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
* Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

Hmm... 19 out of 25. Do you see a pattern here?

And just to compare, here is the SAME LISTING, but with part-green cards as Commanders:

Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
* Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
* Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
* Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
* Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

16 out of 25. Not as bad, with a majority of them overlapping with blue. Here's the same list, but with part-red Commanders:

* Kaalia of the Vast
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rafiq of the Many
* Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
* Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
* Melek, Izzet Paragon
* Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

14 out of 25. Over half the list. Again, not as bad as blue in terms of numbers. Here's the list with part-white Commanders:

* Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
* Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
* Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
Riku of Two Reflections
* Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
Damia, Sage of Stone
* Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

13 out of 25. Blue is still leading in sheer numbers. Now, let's go to the last color, black.

* Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rafiq of the Many
Maelstrom Wanderer
Mayael the Anima
Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

9 out of 25. Quite an underwhelming presence for Black, if I do say so.

So, I think I've sufficiently made my point. While I consider myself fortunate because EVERY card on the above list has passed through my playgroup at some point or another since we started playing EDH. I'm by no means an expert, but I can at least say that I have some idea of what I'm talking about.


Last edited by Terris00 on 2014-Feb-04 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 4:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 6:40 pm
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 4:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:40 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Think like this: isn't getting banned because it enables . If a card is the base issue of a problem, do you ban the 10+ enablers to make the card feel reasonable again, or do you take out the thing that was causing the most issues? You can apply this to at least a few cards on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 5:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 6:40 pm
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern


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