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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-23 9:58 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 6:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
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Location: Halifax, NS
I don't see any empirical evidence as pertaining to those 3 specific P3K cards being the price they are only because of EDH. Showing certain "facts" to prove points is what everyone does all the time, even Michael Moore (wether or not you agree with what he says). You may be right for all it matters, you just can't say "here's 3 cards that are at this price point, and that proves it".

The price can also be attributed to the relative scarcity and age of the cards, some cards will keep on going up in price over time anyways. Just because SCG lists a card at that price doesn't mean that's the price people pay for them, or if anyone even buys them at all.

The only thing that SCG can't control is what WotC prints. They "control" what they want to sell cards for. They make whatever tournaments they want to and know in advance what cards would be useful many months down the line before the general public does. They can game the prices up and down using that knowledge (kinda like insider trading), or just claim they have 1 copy of a card when really they have 50 (like the diamond market does).

The only prices I've tried to personally keep abreast of price-wise over the past while are the revised duals. Up up up is the only way I see their prices. Revised are pretty much a sure bet IMO to top 150$ this year, practically equalling the price for the Unlimited versions. Can I attribute some of that price increase to EDH? Sure I can (without proof), but I think it's much less of a reason rather than "price gouging" by retailers.

Call me skeptical, that's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 7:37 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 8:17 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 9:26 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 11:18 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
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Well, if anyone played 5Color I'd say that could be a factor as well, except, of course, it's not.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 11:31 am 
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Location: Rittman, OH USA
is not the same card as .
is the same card as .

Both of them are marginally better than Time Warp because they don't target, so they'll be worth a little more.
Both of them are in Portal sets, so they'll be worth a little more.
One of them is in P3K, a set with a very low print run, NO US release (no, not even the English), and other cards before it setting a bad price precedent.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 12:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 1:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 1:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 6:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-24 7:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-25 10:03 am 
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First of all, none of the nay sayers responded to my last post. If cards are to be banned for price, are you willing to have cards YOU own banned for the same reason? Underground sea is a prime example. (And yes, I can see it surpassing moxen soon.) Because if you're not, you really have no leg to stand on here. Because US and the other duals are JUST as "Ubiquitous" as any given mox would be.

Secondly, on the issue of EDH effecting prices, the three P3K examples do not correlate very well to moxen.

The % of a card's demand that is determined by EDH will determine how much EDH is affecting the price. Since the 3 P3K cards named have little to no value outside of EDH, nearly the entire demand for them (90%+) is controlled by EDH. Thus, when EDH becomes more popular, they rise at nearly the exact same rate. (Or worse, which I'll explain later.)

This is NOT true of moxen. Many player and collectors already want them. The small fraction of EDH players willing to pay large amounts of cash for their cards would not make up a very high percentage of people who want moxes. (MAYBE 25%) Thus, As EDH became more popular, the moxen WOULD rise, but MUCH slower then the more heavily correlated P3K cards.

Finally, there is the fact that Moxen are spread across many, many competing stores. These include both real world stores and dealers, as well as the internet stores. This is NOT the case for the P3K cards. Real world stores rarely have these, as before recently they were to hard to move. They're generally limited to the largest of the internet stores such as SCG. Basically, a small group of stores cornered the market on these cards and has been systemically inflating the prices.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-25 10:46 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
U-Sea is far more common and easy to obtain than moxen. While $200 U-Sea is potentially in the cards, that's still well under half the price of the worst mox, and less than a 4th the price of the best (Sapphire).

Moxen have seen limited inflation in the past 3 years due to the decline in Sanctionned Vintage events at the fact thaty most Vintage events allow proxies. Demand has been very low and yet prices still continue to rise. The EDH market is exponentially larger than the Vintage market, and a much lower real number of EDH players already own moxen than is true of Collectors/Vintage players that make up the current market. I would conservatively estiamte that the price of Moxen would double within 6 months if made legal in EDH, which would make Mox Sapphire the most expensive non-Summer magic card that exists.

The P3K cards are also driven by collectors as well as EDH, and have been legal for the entire run of their existance. They are also niche cards and outside of the vastly expensive Imperial Seal, not well suited to a broad variety of strategies, unlike Moxen, which fit in EVERY DECK IN THE FORMAT (except Karn/koizlek/Ulamog and Null Rod.terrible.unfun.deck, which might use them anyway to accelerate early lock pieces and be generally even more stupid).

Moxen are not as widespread as you think. Are they as hard to find as a playset of Imperial Recruiters? No. But locally (Southern Ontario, Ontario, CA), there is only 1 store that I can think of that has Moxen on a regular basis, and I haven't seen all 5 in one case at the same time in over 8 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-26 4:30 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
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Location: Halifax, NS

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