[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Treatise on the Banned List

Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2020-Jan-17 1:04 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 3:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The following are the reasons I believe that card are banned in Commander.

For anyone responding to this post, please do NOT do any of the following:
-Argue about the validity of Reason 1. I don't necessarily agree with it either, but it's a fact.
-Make declarations of fact without stating the logic behind them.
-Say the banned list is "Optional". For the vast majority of situations, it's not optional in nay shape or form. This includes MtGO, any sort of tournament or league, and simply playing in different groups.

REASON 1: Cost/Ubiquity Combination
-The card in question costs a large amount of money to acquire. ($100+)
-The card in question is powerful enough that basically every deck of it's colors would want one.
Ur-Example: The five Moxen. While not remotely broken, powerful enough that 99% of decks would want 1+ of them. Too bad they cost $350+.
Reason for this rule: Player won't want to play Commander if they feel that they things such as Moxen in order to have any chance at winning.

REASON 2: Universally Hated
-The card in question very easily ruins the enjoyment of the game for the vast majority of players.
-The card in question is rarely if ever used for anything BUT being abused to "Ruin" games.
Ur-Examples:
: It way too often instantly ended the game... and that's pretty much all it EVER did.
: It ALWAYS instantly ends the game... and that's literally it's only purpose.

REASON 3: Power
The card in question is simply too powerful and gives too much of an advantage to it's caster.
The card in question is SO powerful that even table politics can't control it very well.
Ur-Examples:
: Recurring, nearly unkillable reanimation. My group temporally unbanned this over my objections once. It became routine to gang up on it's caster…but they STILL won over half the time.
: An instant win combo with a ton of cards... and it takes over the game with many, many more.

And now, the Banned list and the reasons I believe each are banned. (Applicable Reasons are in parathesis before each card. Explanations after.)
* Indicates a listing I personally disagree with.

(1) [$100+ and EVERY blue deck would want one.]
(2+3) [Both very powerful and very hated]
(2) [RC thinks people don't like instant wins. I'm unsure.]
(1) [Very powerful. Many decks would want one.]
(2) [RC thinks people don't like autokills. I'm unsure.]
(3) [Just absurdly powerful.]
(2+3) [Very powerful and can fetch entire combos by itself for 4 mana.]
*(2) [Apparently, this causes the game to focus around it. I disagree.]
(2+3) [No explanation needed, is it?]
(1) [Expensive. Any deck that isn't color heavy would likely want one.]
(2+3) [Just ick. This is both very powerful and very much NOT fun.]
*(?) [Doesn't really fit ANY of the 3 rules.]
(3) [Makes basically every other mana source in the game look silly in comparison.]
(2+3) [Allowing Ulamogs (or Blightsteel now) on turn 2 for the low cost of 11 life seems dumb.]
(2) [Like Kokosho above, he takes over the entire game. Also, he keeps coming back.]
*(?) [Doesn't really fit ANY of the 3 rules.]
(1) , Ruby, Pearl, Emerald and Jet [$350+ Every deck that could would want one]
(2+3) [5 mana. During your upkeep you win. Enough said.]
(2+3) [One card instant win combos are generally bad news even at 7 mana.]
(2+3) [It really is a recurring nightmare.]
(2) [Just ridiculously obnoxious.]
(1+2+3) [The best card in magic. And expensive too.]
(1+3) [Expensive and powerful as all heck.]
(2+3) [I would argue this should not be banned were it not for Blightsteel Colossus.]
(2+3) [Backbreaking in slow formats like commander. Plus annoying.]
(2) [Infinite combos with at least 3 different cards. Doesn't do anything else.]
(3) [Yeah, 40 life and Bargain combine a little too well.]
*(?) [Doesn't really fit ANY of the 3 rules.]
(2) [All this card ever does is instantly win you the game. Two card infinite mana combos are just a fact of life in commander. Tack on Infinite card drawing and life too though and it starts to get kind of silly.]
(2/3) {As Commander} (Far too powerful and universally hated.]
(3) {As Commander} [Doubling your mana for a 2 mana investment is kind of, sort of fair. I guess. But NOT as a general.]


So, that leaves me with the following 4 cards in order: (Cards that should LEAST be banned are first.)

:
Am I missing something? Why is this banned? I haven't seen anyone test this, so I could be wrong I suppose.

:
This has always baffled me. It has 100+ fair uses, and only 2 degenerate ones, neither of which is really seems tp powerful. I have seen this tested without any problems. Note that this has it's entire own thread to discuss it.

:
I (think I) understand WHY Koko is banned, but I think it's kind of silly. There's enough graveyard hate to limit it's recursion potential, and life gain simply isn't very good at all in Commander. I COULD be wrong here, but I really don't think so. I have seen this tested without any problems.

:
If cards like , , and the like are legal, why isn't this? If can have bonkers mana AND bonkers general damage via Rofellos, why can't artifact heavy decks get a boost via metalworker? It hardly seems to powerful, and there really isn't many mana infinite combos, and none that win you the game with two cards now that staff is banned.
I have seen this tested with only small issues. I'll admit it's kind of borderline.

Finally, 3 cards that possibly SHOULD be banned under the above reasons:

(Rule 1)
$300, and every black deck (should) want one. Or do you not play s?

(Rule 2)
This is likely the 1st or 2nd most hated card in commander. It's entire function is too lock players out of the game. I've yet to see any deck running it without multiple ways to cheat it into play far to early. Most newer players play mono color decks because they can't afford the land they think they need for more then that. They should not suffer for that.

(Rules 2 and 3)
This is likely the other most hated card in commander. It's entire function is too knock players out of the game. Again, I've yet to see any deck running it without either multiple ways to cheat it into play OR ways to copy/reanimate it multiple time. Mass LD is annoying enough when it’s hitting everyone. When it's just 1 or two player being affected, it's just plain not fun.

Anyway, this ended up even longer then I thought. Please share thoughts/comments/arguments so long as they are supported by some form of logic. :)

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 4:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 4:26 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
I disagree with your reason 1. For most of the cards banned for cost (Recall and Time Walk being exceptions), it isnt about it being degeneratively powerful, just superior to the alternative card choice+expensive, making people feel like theres not a reason not to run it other than cost. If it was already banworthy broken, then cost is irrelevant, and if its some niche card that wouldnt fit into many decks (colored cards, cards that are needed only for certain strategies) then its allowed despite its cost. I personally dont think they SHOULD ban for cost, buit that isnt the topic of this thread, and I notice that when they do, they arent that fussed about the card being powerful just superior to other deckbuilding options and ubiquitous.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 4:27 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 5:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
I largely agree with your proposed unbannings, but not your proposed bannings.

- This guy is not so much a problem card on his own as he is the figurehead of an entire subset - mass land destruction. I mean, we could just add everything from Armageddon to Obliterate to the banned list, but I don't think that's something we want to do. Most casual playgroups discourage land sweepers on their own, and the more competitive groups see it as an important way to keep degenerate combo and control decks in check.

- Part of the cost/ubiquity equation is that the card is substantially better than any available options. There is no card draw spell which comes even close to Ancestral Recall. Vampiric Tutor is strictly better than Imperial Seal, and Demonic Tutor is better than both of them.

- Commander is a multiplayer format where most people play multicolored decks - Iona will rarely hold down much of the table. It's frustrating to get beaten down by her as she locks up the last two spells in your hand, but in my experience that's all she does. I've only ever seen her pick weakened players off in the late game, never shut people out at length.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 6:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
For , think Artifact centric decks. Especially since the advent of Esper, artifact centric decks would be nuts with Academy or Metalworker. Even with as General, fast mana is absurdly powerful. There's a reason WotC has not endorsed fast mana for a while and has pushed mana ramp instead. Fast or free mana put one person lightyears ahead of everyone else. Channel is banned for that, Fastbond is banned for that, the moxen and lotus are banned for it, and Metalworker is also banned for it.


On the subject of Sundering Titan, I'll echo the statement that it's not the titan per-se that's the culprit but mass land destruction that's unfun. hasn't been reprinted in a long time for good reason. , , , , , , , , , , , and are all on my list of cards that aren't fun. is the most recent out of the lot, and since then there's only been and which is more than just land spot removal and they both have their purposes.

_________________
A few of my EDH Generals:
~ - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ - All Creatures Great & Small


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 6:27 pm 

Joined: 2010-Jul-01 3:15 am
Age: Drake
Lion's Eye Diamond can be used for stuff other than combo, reanimation, dredge, etc. It probably shouldnt be banned, although I doubt it would be played that much if it were unbanned,nor would I use it, so I wont push for an unbanning.

As for the bannings, in my opinion being hated or annoying seems too subjective to ban cards for, like cost and unlike power. And if imperial seal gets banned and not vampiric tutor and demonic tutor it would be the final nail in the coffin for the legitimacy of the format in my eyes(and I would have no home for my english nm-m copy that I spent $330 on just for this format :(


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 8:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
I completely agree with kaldare in every single possible way. I will further his argument for lion's eye diamond; the card is only playable in an infinite combo with a 4 mana 2/4 dork. Even then, you'll need another card for the combo. Even then, that third card can't be in your hand!

I will also further his argument for sundering titan. I hate this card because you can't hit the mono green player ramping like ridiculous. I find it okay to have cards that hurt a strategy, however sundering titan is random disruption that makes players quit.

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 8:44 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jan-19 8:40 pm
Age: Hatchling
Allow me to explain Lion's Eye Diamond.

It can be used to play 4+ cost generals on turn 1. In that way it is black lotus. Say turn 1 island, LED Grand Arbiter Augustin IV or Swamp, Sol Ring, LED, Skythiryx the Blight Dragon


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 9:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
GAAIV would not play this card. Skythrix might, if the player likes losing most of their games after killing mode 0 average 0.3 players.

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 10:09 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jan-19 8:40 pm
Age: Hatchling
again it depends on the general. Say turn 1 mountain, basilisk collar, turn 2 Hidetsugu.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 12:16 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
You can already do that Klodin with many generals in a more powerful way.

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 2:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
The generals argument convinced me.

_________________
CR 905.1. Haters gonna hate. It's not a may ability.
Were you blown away by the insight and hilarity of this post? Damn. Try CommanderCast anyway!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 6:32 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Treatise on the Banned List
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 7:48 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
would just win the game.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: