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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - A General EDH Survey

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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-01 9:11 pm 

Joined: 2012-May-21 2:31 pm
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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-02 9:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not that i'm advocating for a ban of Winter Orb, but it's really just mindboggling it's even legal. We have a format with loosely (often to detriment, imo) guidelines and rules that blatantly advertises it as a social format that won't ban cards for power level, balance, etc, and that we are trying to create memorable games and is very obviously geared towards splashy 6 drops. Why even allow Winter Orb? Stasis? Static? Just wild.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 12:07 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I suspect it's the same reason that Armageddon/Ravages of War are legal -- some people like that kind of game. Plus, those cards are pretty blatant at what the intent is. It seems a bunch of cards that are banned along the same line (Sylvan Primordial & Sundering Titan) are ones that look like they'd be fair, but aren't. As it's somewhat harder for people to evaluate it gets the ban to be clear.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 5:02 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 8:27 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 8:50 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The definition of Commander though is not “the format where you get to play all the older cards.” If you want that you're looking for Vintage instead. Anyone coming to Commander thinking that's the entire summary will have been misinformed and will be disappointed.

The definition of Commander is very, very different to that, and much more narrow and focused: ‘That vision [of EDH] is to create variable, interactive, and epic multiplayer games where memories are made, to foster the social nature of the format, and to underscore that competition is not the format’s primary goal. This is summarized as “Create games that everyone will love to remember, not the ones you'd like to forget.”’ (from the Philosophy document.) It is ‘designed to promote social games of magic’ and ‘to help [the global community] enjoy a different kind of magic.’ (EDH rule 1: Philosophy.)

Allowing almost all of the vintage card list helps us achieve many of these goals, while the banlist removes the exceptions that would be disruptive to those goals. When your goals are those I listed having the banlist makes total sense, and since “let people play all the old cards” is not a goal in and of itself, having the banlist we have or expanding it doesn't in and of itself disrupt any of EDH's goals.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: ; ; .


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 11:08 pm 
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Age: Dragon
Vintage is not the place where you can play all the old cards. Technically that is correct, but the vast card pool being diverse doesn't translate into diversity of utilization in decklists, at least ones that win with any consistency. Sure, I can build a vintage deck, but shops and dredge are going to roflstomp me AND eat my lunch 999 times out of 1000. Legacy is much the same. Trust me, even in the wild west days of legacy, before the internet, and by extension, Star City, promoted homogenization of the format, my / deck would consistenIy lose against Survival toolbox, burn and basically any other deck I sat across from. I would still argue that EDH represents both the most diverse and deeply utilized card pool in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 12:27 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 1:38 am 
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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:57 am 
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Vintage, Legacy, Modern and Standard are all competitive formats. The Vintage cardpool and the intent of the format aren't the same. Playing Shrine Tribal is technically Vintage, but I'd say it fits way better under the general umbrella of casual or kitchen table magic.

Edited to make my point more clear.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 3:17 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What I was saying was is there's a format which is definitionally about playing all the old cards, and that's Vintage. That's not about competitive viability, that's about format definition. It's why they merely Restrict cards in Vintage that get outright Banned in Legacy. If we're applying viability that's still not EDH, loads of cards are still unviable here, incidentally many of which you couldn't play in vintage either.

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Beloved precons: ; ; .


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 4:32 am 
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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 6:38 am 
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My point is that a format's cardpool doesn't necessarily match with the intent behind a format's creation. There was a longer post, but my phone and this site are currently having a bit of a spat.

Many have called for a clear division between competitive EDH and casual. The same should hold true for Legacy, Vintage, etc. Star City and its ilk didn't blow up the popularity of legacy on the backs of Tarpan decks. It did it with maybe two-three hundred cards out of tens of thousands. Please see the quote in my signature, it sums up my point pretty well.

Edit - maybe perception is a better word than intent? I feel like if you asked a random Magic player (with some experience of formats) to name a Modern or Legacy deck they wouldn't rattle off a casual treefolk list. They'd come up with Storm or Humans or some other iconic/popular, powerful deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 7:18 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Okay, so if I want to build a treefolk deck, and I make it legacy legal -- is it somehow not a legacy deck simply because it's not competitive?


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 7:23 am 
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Age: Dragon
Yes, it's a Legacy deck. One that will get trounced off of 99% of competitive tables, in the same way that a Stax deck that completely locks everyone out of the game and gets the person arch enemy'd on sight is an EDH deck.


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