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 Post subject: Master Biomancer
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 2:57 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
This one came up in a game this friday;

If creatures ETB at the same time as Master Biomancer, do they get counters? My thought was no, for the same reason you can't Clone something that ETB's the same time the clone does.

We wound up dodging the question because the biomancer player had to sacrifice all the things that entered with it anyways, but we never resolved the correct answer.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Biomancer
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 3:01 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
My thought was no, for the same reason you can't Clone something that ETB's the same time the clone does.

That's not quite right. Clone works that way because it has to choose something already on the battlefield when it enters. Biomancer doesn't require any ETB choices.

However, the Biomancer's ability doesn't do anything until he is in play -- so anything entering the battlefield at the same time wouldn't see that ability yet.

The only time the game "looks back in time" is when stuff goes to the graveyard from play. Coming into the battlefield? Abilities need to already be there :)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Biomancer
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 3:51 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Carthain wrote:
However, the Biomancer's ability doesn't do anything until he is in play -- so anything entering the battlefield at the same time wouldn't see that ability yet.

Right - the relevant thing here is that he has a replacement effect (like a clone does) and not a triggered ability. I get that there's no choice to be made. I'm just trying to verify that it is a replacement and cannot "see" things entering simultaneously, as creatures with ETB triggers do.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Biomancer
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 4:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Correct. Replacement effects have to exist before the event they replace would happen in order to work (unless they specifically affect how the permanent they're on enters the battlefield).

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.


Triggers are different. Most of them are checked after an event occurs, so permanents can trigger as a result of an event that puts them onto the battlefield. But there are several exceptions: dies triggers, and a bunch of rarer ones.
603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game "looks back in time" to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:
603.10a. Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability "Whenever a creature dies, you gain 1 life." Someone casts a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact's ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner's graveyard at the same time as the creatures.
603.10b. Abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out look back in time.
603.10c. Abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached look back in time.
603.10d. Abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object look back in time.
603.10e. Abilities that trigger when a spell is countered look back in time.
603.10f. Abilities that trigger when a player loses the game look back in time.
603.10g. Abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane look back in time.


Last edited by NMS on 2019-Nov-18 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Biomancer
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 4:26 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Carthain wrote:
However, the Biomancer's ability doesn't do anything until he is in play -- so anything entering the battlefield at the same time wouldn't see that ability yet.

Right - the relevant thing here is that he has a replacement effect (like a clone does) and not a triggered ability. I get that there's no choice to be made. I'm just trying to verify that it is a replacement and cannot "see" things entering simultaneously, as creatures with ETB triggers do.

As I said, that ability only exists in the battlefield, so it has to be in the battlefield to affect stuff coming into play -- as it's also coming into play, it doesn't affect those coming into play with it.

NMS has some CR references for ya


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