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 Post subject: Bone Miser and Varina
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 5:57 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Just to clear up a potential interaction...

Let's say I have Varina, Lich Queen, Bone Miser and 6 other zombies, and I attack with all of them. Varina triggers, and I draw 8 cards, gain 8 life, and discard 8 cards. If I were to discard 7 lands and From Under the Floorboards, could I use the mana generated by Bone Miser's ability to pay for the madness cost on FUtF? It seems like this should work, but I wanted a second opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Miser and Varina
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 6:18 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I *think* not but I'm far from sure. Here's my reasoning.

You discard all 8 cards at once. You discard all the lands into the graveyard and the From Under the Floorboards into exile. You then have a chance to cast FUtB, but you don't have any mana from the Bone Mister yet because all those triggered abilities are still waiting to be put on the stack (which won't happen until Varina's ability finishes resolving; which won't happen until after the casting window for FUtB passes)

So either you'll have the mana but will have already not cast FUtB, or you won't have the mana because the Bone Misers triggered ability won't have done anything yet.

Even if that isn't the case I think you still can't do it because even if the triggered abilities from Bone Miser *are* on the stack, the only opportunity you'll have to cast FUtB is immediately as you discard it; you don't get to resolve all 7 of the "add mana" abilities and *then* decide to cast FUtB.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Miser and Varina
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 7:04 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You can resolve the mana abilities before choosing to cast Floorboards because they are both triggered abilities, and you can place all your triggered that occur at the same time on the stack in any order.

Madness is partly a triggered ability. The static ability causes the replacement effect portion of it, forcing you to discard to exile. The triggered ability portion is on the stack after resolving which effect has caused you to discard, and then when the madness triggered ability resolves you choose to pay costs and cast it or you choose to place it into your graveyard.

Viperion wrote:
you don't have any mana from the Bone Mister yet because all those triggered abilities are still waiting to be put on the stack (which won't happen until Varina's ability finishes resolving; which won't happen until after the casting window for FUtB passes)

I don't think this is right. Madness replaces the zone to which you discard (so Floorboards will be in exile while Varina's resolving*), but you don't get a window to resolve triggered abilities or cast spells while another effect is resolving. Varina's ability finishes resolving before you can choose to cast the spell. In this way, Madness is not different from the Miser's triggered abilities. But it used to be.

Madness used to take timing priority over everything else, because you were forced to make the cast choice "as soon as you could cast an instant" and your window has passed "once that player has passed (priority)", but this was changed as of SOI when it returned.

I also think it makes more sense to treat it as a normal triggered ability in the rules now. There are already enough rules weirdos like the Layer 7b deck, Reanimate targeting Golgari Grave Troll counters, and Trinisphere (and Trinis interaction with Delve and Convoke and how they were changed).

* This would matter for an effect that says "Discard 3 cards, then gain 2 life for each creature in your graveyard". If you discarded a creature with madness, it would not be counted for the life gain as it would be in exile until the Madness ability resolved.


edit!: Duh, how about sources.

Current Comp Rules:
702.34. Madness
702.34a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player’s hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. “Madness [cost]” means “If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but exiles it instead of putting it into their graveyard” and “When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn’t, they put this card into their graveyard.”


Rules for how it *used* to function with the timing restriction from 2002 WOTC feature article introducing it:
Quote:
First, a replacement effect optionally removes the card from the game for a short time, keeping it safe from your opponent’s tricks. Then, a triggered ability lets you play the spell for its madness cost the next time you get a chance to play an instant. Finally, if you choose not to play the card after all, it’s put into your graveyard


2002 comp rules (compare to above):
502.24. Madness

502.24a Madness represents two abilities. The first is a static ability of cards that functions while the card is in a player's hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions whenever the first ability is applied. The phrase "Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card from his or her hand, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard," and "Whenever this card is removed from the game this way, until he or she passes next, he or she may play it any time he or she could play an instant as though it were in his or her hand by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. When he or she passes next, he or she puts it into his or her graveyard."


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 Post subject: Re: Bone Miser and Varina
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 8:09 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ah yeah, in that case I think you're right. Discarding the 8 cards gets you 8 triggers (7 from Bone Miser, one from FUtB's madness ability) and since you control all 8 triggers you can put them on the stack in the order you want - obviously in this case put FUtB's trigger on first, then all the Bone Miser triggers; resolve them all giving you 14 Black mana, then cast FUtB.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Bone Miser and Varina
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 1:38 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sweet. I was pretty sure it worked how Sovarius described it, but I wanted the confirmation.

Thanks for that.

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