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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-16 12:55 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Oko falls into the category of cards that I personally don't like and wouldn't complain about if they were banned, even though I haven't had any real problems with him yet. The card design is pretty bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-16 3:26 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
From a politics perspective, Oko seems like a powerful tool for deal-making. In general, though, he seems obnoxious. I haven't had a chance to play since he was printed, though, so I have zero gameplay experience with/against him.

Edit - Thinking about all of the horrible things I could do if Leovold and Oko could be played together is giving me the super villain tingles. I kind of like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 3:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
So not only First Sliver gets the sads but also all the other stupid shit too?

Sure. What about the not stupid shit? Fair decks exist, and "hey, have an elk" is a pretty rude thing to do to them.


Lol what fair decks? Pretty much everyone and their dog is just a degenerate but most just won't admit it. Just look at the top 10 most played cards in edh. Only 2.5 cards out of 10 are something I would call "fair". Even decks that seem "fair" aren't actually looking to play a fair game.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 7:57 am 
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illuknisaa wrote:
Lol what fair decks? Pretty much everyone and their dog is just a degenerate but most just won't admit it. Just look at the top 10 most played cards in edh. Only 2.5 cards out of 10 are something I would call "fair". Even decks that seem "fair" aren't actually looking to play a fair game.

I'm sorry, but this post is wrong in every way it possibly can be.

Going off EDHREC (apology in advance for a LOT of scrolling), the 10 most played cards are:


That's not 2.5/10 being "fair", that's arguably not even 2/10 being degenerate. It's also important to note that Sol Ring, Swords, and Cultivate are the only 3 cards to show up in a majority of decks that can run them. Even if we extend the list to go down the top 10 cards of each color and I am absurdly generous in what I label as "degenerate", the average is 2 per color. Any amount of looking into it would tell you that far and away the most common cards are the boringly efficient utility cards like ramp and removal.

It would be sufficient to say that you've just made an assumption without any kind of real research and thought put into it, and that's clearly true. I think something that's also happening is that your threshold for "degenerate" is far, far lower than most other people's. That's fine in and of itself as a subjective opinion, but when you try to then use that not-agreed-upon-threshold in a more objective discussion, you're not going to convince anybody. Especially when you pointlessly insult people and assume you know what they're thinking (spoiler: you don't).


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 8:35 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
moraff wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
The only silver lining for him is that it IS still his commander, so at some point, if you just keep attacking the same player with it, they HAVE to block, or they'll lose to commander damage.



This.

A 7 turn clock with a commander is not anything to sneeze at, and depending on the deck build, and other decks at the table, there's bound to be some form of pump spell floating around.


with all the other tools U/G has in it's arsenal I can very easily see Oko sticking unchallenged for an entire game. fog effects, trigger counters, reins of power etc. etc. I do think if Oko gets banned in standard and drops significantly in price you are going to see a lot of U/G coming in to metas. I think it's actually a pretty close comparison to Karakas.

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 8:57 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
I do think if Oko gets banned in standard and drops significantly in price you are going to see a lot of U/G coming in to metas. I think it's actually a pretty close comparison to Karakas.
Not against 3 people when the 'Karakas' can get killed with basic creature attacks or other damage. Even UG isnt going to have those sorts of resources just to protect Oko.

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niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 9:37 am 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Gath Immortal wrote:
I do think if Oko gets banned in standard and drops significantly in price you are going to see a lot of U/G coming in to metas.
Wait, so what you're saying is that there are tons of people out there who would looove to play UG in Commander, but won't because Oko is too expensive? Because that's what you're implying here. Never mind that UG was the most popular color combination way before Oko was printed.

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I think it's actually a pretty close comparison to Karakas.
Ok, now you've reached the stage of paranoid fearmongering. We already have Meddling Mage, Declaration of Naught and Nevermore and maybe some other cards I forgot about. How exactly is Oko worse than these perfectly legal cards?

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tempesteye wrote:
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In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 1:53 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Antis wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I do think if Oko gets banned in standard and drops significantly in price you are going to see a lot of U/G coming in to metas.
Wait, so what you're saying is that there are tons of people out there who would looove to play UG in Commander, but won't because Oko is too expensive? Because that's what you're implying here. Never mind that UG was the most popular color combination way before Oko was printed.

Yeah... that one doesn't make a lot of sense. I do think we'll see a lot of OKO coming to metas (into existing U/G/x decks) if the price drops to the point he's easy to pick up. That MAY be what Gath was trying to say, but I dunno.

Quote:
Quote:
I think it's actually a pretty close comparison to Karakas.
Ok, now you've reached the stage of paranoid fearmongering. We already have Meddling Mage, Declaration of Naught and Nevermore and maybe some other cards I forgot about. How exactly is Oko worse than these perfectly legal cards?

There are 3 ways Oko is worse (in the sense of "more troublesome");
1. He can do it to everyone. The cards you named you have to choose 1 commander to hose. Oko can do everyone's commander, one at a time.
2. He's not pre-emptive. If you want to use one of those cards to block an opponent's commander, it has to hit play before that commander does. Oko can come down after you've already had your commander for a couple turns and elk that shit.
3. Oko is also straight up better than all 3 of those cards, because he doesn't just impact one card. He's useful against a wide array of things, which makes him FAR more desirable to have in your deck, because he handles so many things, as long as you can keep the heat off him, and even if he takes some damage, if you don't kill him, he can continue to do his thing because the offending ability is a +1.

illuknisaa wrote:
Lol what fair decks? Pretty much everyone and their dog is just a degenerate but most just won't admit it. Just look at the top 10 most played cards in edh. Only 2.5 cards out of 10 are something I would call "fair". Even decks that seem "fair" aren't actually looking to play a fair game.

So just to be clear here, you put something like, say, Depala, Pilot Exemplar in the same category as The First Sliver? Because I'm pretty sure the difference in threat level and obnoxiousness (is that a word?) is gigantic.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 2:24 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Quote:
There are 3 ways Oko is worse (in the sense of "more troublesome");
1. He can do it to everyone. The cards you named you have to choose 1 commander to hose. Oko can do everyone's commander, one at a time.
2. He's not pre-emptive. If you want to use one of those cards to block an opponent's commander, it has to hit play before that commander does. Oko can come down after you've already had your commander for a couple turns and elk that shit.
3. Oko is also straight up better than all 3 of those cards, because he doesn't just impact one card. He's useful against a wide array of things, which makes him FAR more desirable to have in your deck, because he handles so many things, as long as you can keep the heat off him, and even if he takes some damage, if you don't kill him, he can continue to do his thing because the offending ability is a +1.
On the other hand, those cards flat-out turn your commander off. Oko's effect is weaker than that. As others have pointed out, with him, you still have a 3/3 that deals commander damage. So it's not strictly Nevermore+. Also, I don't think point 3 makes too much of a difference, seeing as most creatures in commander are played because of their ETB triggers, so Elking them is kinda "meh".

Basically, I don't think he's in any danger of being banned. And frankly, playing Oko makes one into "that guy who plays cards like Oko", which should paint a huge target on one's face anyway =)

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tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 2:45 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Antis wrote:
Also, I don't think point 3 makes too much of a difference, seeing as most creatures in commander are played because of their ETB triggers, so Elking them is kinda "meh".

You realize he hits artifacts too, right? Your good mana rock? Elk. Your awesome equipement? Elk. Your Darksteel Forge? Elk. Also, don't overstate the prevalence of ETB creatures. They are certainly popular, but there are plenty of creatures with powerful static abilities that are also played, be they powerhouses like Praetors, utility/engine creatures like Mentor of the Meek or Viscera Seer, mana generators, lords... there are lots of things to elk that are not underwhelming, and the versatility to do so makes Oko much more appealing than running Meddling Mage in your deck.

Antis wrote:
Basically, I don't think he's in any danger of being banned. And frankly, playing Oko makes one into "that guy who plays cards like Oko", which should paint a huge target on one's face anyway =)

Which is kinda the point here, isn't it? You're right, he's probably not getting the axe. He's also absolutely one of the griefiest cards out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 7:13 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Antis wrote:
Which is kinda the point here, isn't it? You're right, he's probably not getting the axe. He's also absolutely one of the griefiest cards out there.
So, to summarize, you're afraid precisely because of that—that he won' get banned, but because he's useful as a general (no pun) creature hoser, people will play him, even if they would never play Nevermore and co. In other words that Oko will ruin games by accident, basically. Is that accurate?

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tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 2:51 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
Lol what fair decks? Pretty much everyone and their dog is just a degenerate but most just won't admit it. Just look at the top 10 most played cards in edh. Only 2.5 cards out of 10 are something I would call "fair". Even decks that seem "fair" aren't actually looking to play a fair game.

I'm sorry, but this post is wrong in every way it possibly can be.

Going off EDHREC (apology in advance for a LOT of scrolling), the 10 most played cards are:


That's not 2.5/10 being "fair", that's arguably not even 2/10 being degenerate. It's also important to note that Sol Ring, Swords, and Cultivate are the only 3 cards to show up in a majority of decks that can run them. Even if we extend the list to go down the top 10 cards of each color and I am absurdly generous in what I label as "degenerate", the average is 2 per color. Any amount of looking into it would tell you that far and away the most common cards are the boringly efficient utility cards like ramp and removal.

It would be sufficient to say that you've just made an assumption without any kind of real research and thought put into it, and that's clearly true. I think something that's also happening is that your threshold for "degenerate" is far, far lower than most other people's. That's fine in and of itself as a subjective opinion, but when you try to then use that not-agreed-upon-threshold in a more objective discussion, you're not going to convince anybody. Especially when you pointlessly insult people and assume you know what they're thinking (spoiler: you don't).


Fair deck in magic means that a deck is looking to play a normal game of magic where people cast spells on curve, make one for one trades and look to kill people through combat. Unfair decks on the other hand don't.

The most common way people break the "fair deck" -mould is by ramping. Ramping lets you skip mana curves and let you play big stuff earlier. That is the very definition of unfair. Vast majority of decks play ramp cards. Can you even find one deck list that doesn't play ramp?


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 3:10 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Are there any fair decks outside of draft, then? Fetches, ramp spells, cantrips, pitch spells and mana-producing artifacts all break the "fair" mold you've set forth.

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Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 3:56 am 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
illuknisaa wrote:
Fair deck in magic means...
Here, you dropped this:

Quote:
"In my personal opinion,..."
Also, by extension, you're saying that 99.9% of all Magic decks are unfair. How is the game still alive, then, if that's true?

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I could be wrong. I'm just not in the mood.
tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 4:34 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
Fair deck in magic means that a deck is looking to play a normal game of magic where people cast spells on curve, make one for one trades and look to kill people through combat. Unfair decks on the other hand don't.

So... a card such as Mind Rot is unfair, as it's not 1-for-1 trade. Killing someone not through combat -- so a spell such as Flame Rift is unfair.

Your definition there is so narrow not only does it not agree with the general playerbase, it's not even useful on it's own.

By your definition, playing certain cards as they are intended is unfair. How does a definition like that help us in any situation?


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