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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MRHblue wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
This sets up the Flash/Hulk combo and you win from there.
If people are playing Flash Hulk, GU is the 3rd best card in the deck, and the only banned one. That's true, but he asked how you can win with gifts that early. Using it to assemble your combo win certainly counts as using it to win.

moraff wrote:
I fail to find the other two cards, cast Mimeoplasm and proceed to have a turn three 21/18 haste commander.

That dies to any removal and can't kill more than one person

If you have this out turn 3, there's a decent chance no one has that removal and a decent chance at least one player has no blockers. It's not a win-now move, but it's a pretty strong bid to win in the next couple turns.

MrMoustache wrote:
My point is that saying "people won't run this without packages" isn't true - it definitely happened

Fine, let me be more exact. MOST people won't run this without packages.

MrMoustache wrote:
saying "it's not good if you don't" isn't true - it's just not AS good as, say, Demonic Tutor.

I think that gap is pretty wide, unless you're running a deck that can take advantage of what's going into the yard. As mentioned above, with The Mimeoplasm, you CAN use it as an instant speed double entomb, which certainly has its uses. Unfortunately (again), those uses are probably pretty unpleasant.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 12:49 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
That dies to any removal and can't kill more than one person


Actually, Gaea's Revenge dies to only green removal, sacrifice effects, and sweepers. The bulk of which are often not held up for on turn 3. Due to this, I generally attack players running forests first, providing they're not one of the few people in my meta that find themselves in a situation where they can block on turn 3. YMMV though as my Meta is very Durdle Turtle, with most games being ramp and setup for turns 1,2, and 3 and creatures coming out around turn 4-5.

For a real bonus on turn 3 I could exile Elvish spirit guide from my hand instead of using my G/B land which frees up black mana to cast entomb to grab Wonder/Filth depending on the board state.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
What is the wincon when you play t1 sol ring, t2 pass and end step Gifts?

There's a few ways to go. Firstly you could use it to fetch a Protean Hulk package;
Protean Hulk, Flash, Noxious Revival, Regrowth.


But this is a problem with Flash Hulk and Flash Hulk players :(
And the RC doesn't ban with competitive players in mind (and Flash Hulk has been my only cEDh deck since the week it was unbanned)
So this is true but i don't think very exemplary of the core reason probably (not that it doesn't have problems).
Believe me i'd play GU in my flash hulk deck, but it's not like flash hulk is hard. And casual players playing it know what they're doing - the best hulk packages take many slots you can't really stumble into an instant-speed win without trying. So this being a real reason is kind of dubious cause those players are going to do it anyway.

Sovarius wrote:
Whether Gifts is broken or not, this case is a problem with 1-2 specific other cards, not Gifts.

You're not wrong that fast mana has its own problems. But even without it, one card assembling a combo at instant speed is very problematic.[/quote]
I realize that regardless of this conversation, it's not getting unbanned, haha. I get why it's banned, i just probably will never change that it's not significantly problematic. My core issue is actually that this is a format where garbage like Sol Ring is allowed, and cards that are hateful and outside the design of the format like Winter Orb are allowed, and many players including the curators themselves to a degree believe you can fix problem cards by not playing against them, which itself is completely privileged and not possibly for all peoples.
These are all other things from and for other discussions though i guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-17 2:25 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sovarius wrote:
But this is a problem with Flash Hulk and Flash Hulk players :(
And the RC doesn't ban with competitive players in mind (and Flash Hulk has been my only cEDh deck since the week it was unbanned)
So this is true but i don't think very exemplary of the core reason probably (not that it doesn't have problems).
Believe me i'd play GU in my flash hulk deck, but it's not like flash hulk is hard. And casual players playing it know what they're doing - the best hulk packages take many slots you can't really stumble into an instant-speed win without trying. So this being a real reason is kind of dubious cause those players are going to do it anyway.

Let's be clear here - I never said "Gifts should be banned because it can be used to assemble Flash/Hulk". I mentioned that Gifts is effectively a one-card combo that can be cast as early as turn 2 and at instant speed, and then you asked me what the wincon would be in that specific scenario, and I gave you some examples. That's all. There very well may be others that would work that I couldn't think of, and there are definitely some not-quite-there but probably win anyways setups, like the infinite mana packages I mentioned.

The reasons I feel it's problematic are that it is a "one-card combo", it's relatively cheap to cast, and above all, it's instant speed. Furthermore, its so-called drawback doesn't apply in EDH, which I would argue constitutes "interacts poorly with the rules of EDH". Focusing on specific gifts packages is missing the point.

Sovarius wrote:
My core issue is actually that this is a format where garbage like Sol Ring is allowed, and cards that are hateful and outside the design of the format like Winter Orb are allowed, and many players including the curators themselves to a degree believe you can fix problem cards by not playing against them, which itself is completely privileged and not possibly for all peoples.

You're preaching to the choir on that one man, though I'd argue that those things should go away, rather than cutting a card like gifts loose.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 5:51 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Furthermore, its so-called drawback doesn't apply in EDH, which I would argue constitutes "interacts poorly with the rules of EDH".
This part is very true, very relevant and shouldn't be overlooked. I seem to recall MaRo or someone else mentioning that it was costed as it was, because you had to basically bend your deck construction to make it work effectively. That's not the case in Commander.


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