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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-08 3:59 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MRHblue wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
My experience with it was if it resolved, the game was probably over. Very much would not want to see it again.
Aren't there lots of legal cards that match that description?

I think this goes to 'intentionally breaking' the card.

I mean, sure, but how many spells are instants that might get cast turn 2 and just end the game? That's the big problem with it in my opinion - being an instant means you can cast it on your last opponent's end step, thus dodging a lot of the interaction that people might have and having all your mana available to abuse what you just got when you untap.

The card definitely deserves its spot on the banned list. If you've got a bunch of friends that want to play with it and they're specifically going out of their way not to break it, then sure, play it in your group. That applies to anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-10 10:04 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I mean, sure, but how many spells are instants that might get cast turn 2 and just end the game? That's the big problem with it in my opinion - being an instant means you can cast it on your last opponent's end step, thus dodging a lot of the interaction that people might have and having all your mana available to abuse what you just got when you untap.
Casting a 4 drop on T2 and then also having the resources to win the game with those cards is the definition of a deck built to do so. I understand we disagree about this card, but you can you honestly show me a 75% deck that can actually do this? Even in Magical Christmas land this is dedicated building.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-10 2:30 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MRHblue wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I mean, sure, but how many spells are instants that might get cast turn 2 and just end the game? That's the big problem with it in my opinion - being an instant means you can cast it on your last opponent's end step, thus dodging a lot of the interaction that people might have and having all your mana available to abuse what you just got when you untap.
Casting a 4 drop on T2 and then also having the resources to win the game with those cards is the definition of a deck built to do so. I understand we disagree about this card, but you can you honestly show me a 75% deck that can actually do this? Even in Magical Christmas land this is dedicated building.

I'm not really into the whole "you have to build around it for it to be problematic" argument. It feels a lot like the old "dies to removal" thinking. At a certain point, card that is too good is too good. I know the RC doesn't really do power level bans, but still, it's disingenuous to look at a card in a best-case scenario to determine whether it's problematic. Assuming people aren't going to build their decks to take advantage of a card like gifts is definitely a best-case scenario. I seriously doubt that people are going to put a card like that in their deck and NOT have specific card packages to fetch with it - it's not good if you don't.

At any rate, I know my phrasing could probably have been better, but it's the instant speed part that I was trying to highlight as the most problematic. Regardless of when you cast it, it's still a tutor that you play at instant speed and gets multiple cards, and one whose "drawback" of not letting you get multiples of the same card is moot in EDH.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-10 7:18 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I'm not really into the whole "you have to build around it for it to be problematic" argument. It feels a lot like the old "dies to removal" thinking. At a certain point, card that is too good is too good.
That is a really interesting take when that exact thing keeps Hermit Druid and Survival legal.
Quote:
I seriously doubt that people are going to put a card like that in their deck and NOT have specific card packages to fetch with it - it's not good if you don't.
You can take advantage of a card, and not put in 'I win' buttons. People play Oath of Druids and Tooth and Nail for value.

Anyway, neither is going to change position. I appreciate the civil discussion.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-11 8:26 am 

Joined: 2019-Nov-11 8:21 am
Age: Hatchling
I wish I could, I only play online so my decks that had banned cards are bricked with no refunds.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-11 10:06 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MRHblue wrote:
That is a really interesting take when that exact thing keeps Hermit Druid and Survival legal.

I had a reply to this, but it would take the thread in a direction it probably shouldn't go.

MRHblue wrote:
You can take advantage of a card, and not put in 'I win' buttons.

If I had any faith that people would actually play that way, I'd feel differently about it.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 5:30 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I seriously doubt that people are going to put a card like that in their deck and NOT have specific card packages to fetch with it - it's not good if you don't.

I did exactly that, and it wasn't "not good", it just wasn't broken. Need some creatures right now? Fetch 4, get 2. Need some removal? Fetch 4, get 2. Need to get out of what turned out to be a bad combat step? Fetch 4 pump spells, get 2. And so on. I totally get why it's banned, but if you don't specifically go out of your way to break it, it's a fun and fair card.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 10:51 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MrMoustache wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I seriously doubt that people are going to put a card like that in their deck and NOT have specific card packages to fetch with it - it's not good if you don't.

I did exactly that, and it wasn't "not good", it just wasn't broken. Need some creatures right now? Fetch 4, get 2. Need some removal? Fetch 4, get 2. Need to get out of what turned out to be a bad combat step? Fetch 4 pump spells, get 2. And so on. I totally get why it's banned, but if you don't specifically go out of your way to break it, it's a fun and fair card.

If you don't have specific setups or a lot of redundancy, you don't get what you need. And even if you DO have enough redundancy to pull 4 of a specific variety of card from your library, you're getting the worst cards you reveal in those cases, which means you're effectively throwing away better cards to get suboptimal ones most of the time.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 11:02 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I mean, sure, but how many spells are instants that might get cast turn 2

Whether Gifts is broken or not, this case is a problem with 1-2 specific other cards, not Gifts.

What is the wincon when you play t1 sol ring, t2 pass and end step Gifts?


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 12:32 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sovarius wrote:
What is the wincon when you play t1 sol ring, t2 pass and end step Gifts?

There's a few ways to go. Firstly you could use it to fetch a Protean Hulk package;
Protean Hulk, Flash, Noxious Revival, Regrowth.

This sets up the Flash/Hulk combo and you win from there.

Or you could go for infinite mana, with;
Noxious Revival, Regrowth, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact.

That doesn't win on its own, but does put you in a dominating position, and could just end the game now, depending what else is in hand.

Alternative; Worldgorger Dragon, Animate Dead, Stinkweed Imp, Noxious Revival.

There are likely other options, but that's what I can think of off-hand.

Sovarius wrote:
Whether Gifts is broken or not, this case is a problem with 1-2 specific other cards, not Gifts.

You're not wrong that fast mana has its own problems. But even without it, one card assembling a combo at instant speed is very problematic.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 1:08 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
What is the wincon when you play t1 sol ring, t2 pass and end step Gifts?


In Mimeoplasm:

Death's Shadow
Gaea's Revenge

I fail to find the other two cards, cast Mimeoplasm and proceed to have a turn three 21/18 haste commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 4:44 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
This sets up the Flash/Hulk combo and you win from there.
If people are playing Flash Hulk, GU is the 3rd best card in the deck, and the only banned one.
moraff wrote:
I fail to find the other two cards, cast Mimeoplasm and proceed to have a turn three 21/18 haste commander.

That dies to any removal and can't kill more than one person

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 7:08 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I seriously doubt that people are going to put a card like that in their deck and NOT have specific card packages to fetch with it - it's not good if you don't.

I did exactly that, and it wasn't "not good", it just wasn't broken. Need some creatures right now? Fetch 4, get 2. Need some removal? Fetch 4, get 2. Need to get out of what turned out to be a bad combat step? Fetch 4 pump spells, get 2. And so on. I totally get why it's banned, but if you don't specifically go out of your way to break it, it's a fun and fair card.

If you don't have specific setups or a lot of redundancy, you don't get what you need. And even if you DO have enough redundancy to pull 4 of a specific variety of card from your library, you're getting the worst cards you reveal in those cases, which means you're effectively throwing away better cards to get suboptimal ones most of the time.

The worst two removal spells still kill two creatures (or still wipe the board, if board wipes). The worst two creatures are still two very good creatures (I'm not running Gray Ogre and Earth Elemental in my commander decks). My point is that saying "people won't run this without packages" isn't true - it definitely happened (again, before I realised it was banned); and saying "it's not good if you don't" isn't true - it's just not AS good as, say, Demonic Tutor.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 7:30 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Has anyone played Fastbond? It was unrestricted, and there are so many fast mana rocks.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 8:06 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
Has anyone played Fastbond? It was unrestricted, and there are so many fast mana rocks.


I have had a number of decks where this card would be very good, and I’m glad it’s banned. The floor is having 3 lands in play at the end of T1. The ceiling is something like having Fastbond, Ramanup Excavator, and a fetch in play on T1, and just getting all your basics.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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