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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-05 11:04 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I feel like the title of this thread is sort of click-baity. Because what it should really say is "Playing with banned cards is fun and OK as long as your playgroup is fine with it". Which is what you're describing.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-05 3:13 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I feel like the title of this thread is sort of click-baity. Because what it should really say is "Playing with banned cards is fun and OK as long as your playgroup is fine with it". Which is what you're describing.


i feel like its a fair point though. people get hung up on the rules and miss out on the "do whatever your playgroup finds fun" part and dont tweak accordingly


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-05 7:39 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Playing with banned cards is one of the best aspects of EDH. In fact, I started playing EDH because Survival of the Fittest got banned in Legacy. In the context of playing cards that are on the EDH ban list, well, I think everyone should experiment with house rules and alternate formats at least occasionally. Personally I'd rather see Ashnod's Coupon than Primeval Titan, but I guess we don't have to play together.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 12:25 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Shabbaman wrote:
Playing with banned cards is one of the best aspects of EDH. In fact, I started playing EDH because Survival of the Fittest got banned in Legacy. In the context of playing cards that are on the EDH ban list, well, I think everyone should experiment with house rules and alternate formats at least occasionally. Personally I'd rather see Ashnod's Coupon than Primeval Titan, but I guess we don't have to play together.


Yeah, titan can be a drag, as can most of the banned list, but Library of alexandria? a mox or soemthing, if my firend had one and just wanted the chance to play it, id be down. i used to have a library once and i was always sad it wasnt useful. too bad for vintage, banned everywhere else

in some/most cases, it's about how a player USES a card, not about the card itsself.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 1:48 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
What's the fair use of fast mana?

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 3:31 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Shabbaman wrote:
What's the fair use of fast mana?


If you open a precon and replace a basic land with a mox, you won't overpower the other precons.

If you know why a card is banned and avoid those situations, many cards can be fun. The ones that play poorly in the format overall are likely best avoided. We tried gifts ungiven, and it was no fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 3:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Playing a game of EDH or building a deck for it is more of an art than a science. And in that respect, the banned list is similar to a musician saying to avoid parallel fifths or a filmmaker keeping the camera straight. The rules are far from absolute or perfect, but following them will generally lead to the outcomes you want, and in order to break them you need to understand why they are there in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Shabbaman wrote:
What's the fair use of fast mana?


Adding one mox of one color to an artifact deck just to up the artifact count in place of a land isnt crippling. Fast mana is widely available with non-banned cards like sol ring and Mox opal.

Also, not all groups have the same definition of fun, so there are other reasons where fair may not be an issue. Its about talking to your playgroup and coming to a consensus. The banned list is just a guideline and people follow it like strict law when it comes to removing cards but are often more flexible about banning more cards in a local group, when in reality its 2 sides of the same coin


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-06 8:00 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
Shabbaman wrote:
What's the fair use of fast mana?

Assuming you didn't intend that to say "there is no fair use of fast mana", i mean you probably meant that, but sarcasm doesn't work on teh internets right? So having no tutors and having to naturally draw into fast mana seems ok to me, to a certain density(having all the mox is a bit ott).


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-07 5:18 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
I've used Gifts Ungiven in the past and found it to be perfectly fair when you don't intentionally break it. For example, I used it in a deck to go find 4 removal spells, 2 went into the GY, and the other 2 were in my hand, to immediately deal with a couple of threats. Other times I've grabbed 4 creatures and been happy that I got 2 of them for 4 mana. Overall I found it a powerful-but-fair card. But this was in a deck that played little or no graveyard recursion and didn't play the Dark Depths/Gifts Ungiven combo. It was just a 4-mana "tutor two, lose two" card.

Once I learned that Gifts Ungiven was on the banned list (I didn't look to see if it was because at the time I wouldn't have considered it to be ban-worthy), I took it out to avoid any accusations of cheating, but in my playgroup, it never caused any problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-07 6:10 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gifts Ungiven has the distinction(?) of being the only banned card I put in a deck without realising it was banned, for pretty much exactly the same reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-07 6:17 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
MrMoustache wrote:
I've used Gifts Ungiven in the past and found it to be perfectly fair when you don't intentionally break it. For example, I used it in a deck to go find 4 removal spells, 2 went into the GY, and the other 2 were in my hand, to immediately deal with a couple of threats. Other times I've grabbed 4 creatures and been happy that I got 2 of them for 4 mana. Overall I found it a powerful-but-fair card. But this was in a deck that played little or no graveyard recursion and didn't play the Dark Depths/Gifts Ungiven combo. It was just a 4-mana "tutor two, lose two" card.

Once I learned that Gifts Ungiven was on the banned list (I didn't look to see if it was because at the time I wouldn't have considered it to be ban-worthy), I took it out to avoid any accusations of cheating, but in my playgroup, it never caused any problems.


That's interesting. My experience was it was too big of a momentum swing even when not really being abused. It just felt like it invalidated what happened before it was cast.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-07 9:02 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Dee123 wrote:
That's interesting. My experience was it was too big of a momentum swing even when not really being abused. It just felt like it invalidated what happened before it was cast.

My experience with it was if it resolved, the game was probably over. Very much would not want to see it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-07 9:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
My experience with it was if it resolved, the game was probably over. Very much would not want to see it again.
Aren't there lots of legal cards that match that description?

I think this goes to 'intentionally breaking' the card.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing with banned cards is fun and ok
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-08 12:08 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
20MillionTrees wrote:
.. Anybody else have an experience like this? If not I highly recommend giving it a shot sometime if your playgroup is cool with it. Sure, the banlist has its uses but one of the best things about Commander is that it's a casual format and the rules can be adjusted to make the best experience possible.


I am hoping to find a play group soon, I just get out to the shops so infrequently. I have not been able to play really at all except Arena for a while.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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