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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-01 9:42 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
In the interest of those of you who wish to be able to move on to a different discussion:

Painter's Servant is not getting unbanned.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-02 2:57 am 
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I'm okay with that, the 2 mana 1/3 doesn't add as much to the format as people are suggesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-02 8:56 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Grindstone would be played by exactly ONE type of player. Those who are trying to be competitive, but aren't very good at it.

Boshea wrote:
Exactly. Still find it funny that every person that wants it unbanned seems to ignore the large number of softlocks that PS generates.

So? Soft locks are just that... soft. In a 4 player game, even when you do manage to get one off, they rarely survive long.

Boshea wrote:
-I want it unbanned so I can make bad cards good. Answer, stop playing bad cards

Really? Aren't playing cards that are normally "bad" a LARGE part of casual formats like commander?

Boshea wrote:
-I want it unbanned so I can make locks. Answer, this is why it was banned

If players want to play "unfun" combos, they're going to. I'd rather they player PS/Deathgrip then most of the other (more-powerful) soft locks already legal... Not to mention the hard locks.[/quote]

Boshea wrote:
-I want it unbanned for my scarecrow tribal deck. Answer, check with playgroup

Yeah, that "Playgroup" line was debunked long ago. Too many groups follow the banned list as gospel, not to mention the fact that many people play outside of isolated local groups nowadays.

niheloim wrote:
Silly. I don't play bad cards, I WANT to play bad cards with painters servant. Playing with bad cards is every bit a valid thing to do.

Indeed... Making "Bad" cards good is a key part of many player's enjoyment of the game... and commander players seem more inclined towards this then most player groups.

Sheldon wrote:
Painter's Servant is not getting unbanned.

In this instance, I think you're are on the losing side.
In almost every case, more people on these boards, (and from my experience, the general commander player base as well), support keeping the status quo as opposed to changing it. This applies regardless of whether it's bannings, unbannings, rules changes, or anything else. It's basic human nature... In general, we don't like change.
However, in this case, more people seem to support the change then the status quo... that alone gives is a rather strong argument... especially in a format based around fun.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-02 9:55 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
...

Sheldon wrote:
Painter's Servant is not getting unbanned.

In this instance, I think you're are on the losing side.
...

This made me lol.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-02 7:26 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
tempesteye wrote:
kaldare wrote:
...

Sheldon wrote:
Painter's Servant is not getting unbanned.

In this instance, I think you're are on the losing side.
...

This made me lol.

It made me want to remind kaldare how low it is the proportion of EDH players that use message boards.

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 12:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-03 3:54 pm
Age: Drake
Honestly, I don't really care either way about Painter's Servant.

I will say that Iona, Shield of Emeria, in my experience, is far more harmful to the format alone than any of the other combo's with Painter's - yes, including Grindstone (as has been said, that combo really isn't that good).

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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 7:26 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
It made me want to remind kaldare how low it is the proportion of EDH players that use message boards.


I'm very aware of this. Do I need to remind you that players, especially the type generally attracted to commander, don't like cards being banned? Especially when the majority of them can't easily see any problem with the card? And especially when it's the type of cards many of them would like to play?

Before the (very random) ban of PS, it wasn't something I had ever heard complaining about from the casual crowd... unlike many other cards that were never acted on. (Including Iona for that matter.)
Basically, only a douche is going to play the more degenerate combos, and their power levels are low enough that they're easily controlled by player/group regulation. (Except MAYBE Iona, which is a rather hated card anyways.)

Muspellsheimr wrote:
will say that Iona, Shield of Emeria, in my experience, is far more harmful to the format alone than any of the other combo's with Painter's - yes, including Grindstone (as has been said, that combo really isn't that good).

I agree... It's especially bad for newer players playing mono colored decks because they can't afford the mana base that they perceive is required to play more colors. More experienced players will include colorless answers... new players are much less likely to do so.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 9:51 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-15 2:37 pm
Age: Dragon
I do find it interesting that Iona + PS is the combination people focus on, when Teferii + Knowledge Pool is a much more reasonable combo. Yes yes, I know PS combos well with a long list of other cards as well, but it bothers me that some combos are "2+ card combo that are fine," where as others are, "2+ card combos that are too degenerate."

Out of curiosity: Where is the line?

Note: This isn't an argument for the banning / unbanning of anything, its just a question.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 9:56 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
While I agree that Teferi/Pool is pretty obnoxious, Iona/PS was often a one-card combo via Tooth and Nail or Defense of the Heart. Any one or two card combos that are guaranteed to lock the entire table out of playing spells are pretty lame.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 11:16 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-26 5:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Painter's servant breaks to many things in to many ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 11:30 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spekter wrote:
While I agree that Teferi/Pool is pretty obnoxious, Iona/PS was often a one-card combo via Tooth and Nail or Defense of the Heart. Any one or two card combos that are guaranteed to lock the entire table out of playing spells are pretty lame.


Teferi/Pool is effectively ALWAYS a one card combo too, since one of the cards is a commander, and if played correctly, it's literally impossible to stop except via counterspell. Yes, a pre-setup board state can do it to, or one of a very few number of generals, but basically, it's a counterspell on Teferi or everyone loses.

And yet neither of those cards are banned. Why?
It's can't be power. Teferi/Pool is MUCH more powerful then anything involving PS. It's also 100 times harder to answer.
Is Knowledge pool a better card for the format? PS helps enable many otherwise sad cards to be at least semi-useful. Knowledge Pool? It lets you anger the whole table... That's about it. Anyone using it is either purposely trying to screw with people (a griefer) or is going to be trying to break it and do degenerate things. I just can't see anyone thinking that KP is a necessarily thing to have around. So that's not it.

So... what? The RC (or a member of it) happens to personally like knowledge pool? Or dislike PS?
Is that really what it comes down to?

fistsofthor wrote:
Painter's servant breaks to many things in to many ways.

Refuted a hundred time already. "Break" implies making something too powerful, which PS does NOT do. The only possible card it "breaks" is Iona. And even that's debatable, since it's not really Iona or PS that does the breaking, but the cards that allow you to search for and put multiple creatures into play for free. (T&N and DoTH)

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 12:55 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
"Break" implies making something too powerful, which PS does NOT do.

Ever consider that your criteria for banning are different from those of the RC?

People have given you some reasons as to why PS is banned - and while you may disagree with them, your disagreement isn't changing that PS is banned.

So, you can either accept that PS is banned for reasons that you don't agree with - or you can continue to seemingly hit your head against the wall.
LilyHaze wrote:
I do find it interesting that Iona + PS is the combination people focus on, when Teferii + Knowledge Pool is a much more reasonable combo. Yes yes, I know PS combos well with a long list of other cards as well, but it bothers me that some combos are "2+ card combo that are fine," where as others are, "2+ card combos that are too degenerate."

Out of curiosity: Where is the line?


I think there are a couple of things to consider for this...

Iona/PS is easier to assemble than Teferi/KP, as there are a few cards that can put into play multiple creatures at once - while I can't think of anything off the top of my head that can put both a creature and a non-creature artifact into play at the same time.

Also, from what I've seen/experienced (which is anecdotal, I'll admit) - Iona/PS was put in more decks than Teferi/KP. Wether this is just because Iona/PS is easier to get out (see above) or some other reason, I don't know.

Finally, there may be consideration to the fact that Teferi/KP isn't a hard lock, unlike Iona/PS (Iona/PS you can't cast anything ... Teferi/KP there are still a few spells you can cast and have resolve - your commander, flashback spells from the graveyard, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Argument for Painter's Servant.
AgePosted: 2011-May-03 7:36 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
LilyHaze wrote:
I do find it interesting that Iona + PS is the combination people focus on, when Teferii + Knowledge Pool is a much more reasonable combo. Yes yes, I know PS combos well with a long list of other cards as well, but it bothers me that some combos are "2+ card combo that are fine," where as others are, "2+ card combos that are too degenerate."

Out of curiosity: Where is the line?


I think there are a couple of things to consider for this...

Iona/PS is easier to assemble than Teferi/KP, as there are a few cards that can put into play multiple creatures at once - while I can't think of anything off the top of my head that can put both a creature and a non-creature artifact into play at the same time.

Also, from what I've seen/experienced (which is anecdotal, I'll admit) - Iona/PS was put in more decks than Teferi/KP. Wether this is just because Iona/PS is easier to get out (see above) or some other reason, I don't know.

Finally, there may be consideration to the fact that Teferi/KP isn't a hard lock, unlike Iona/PS (Iona/PS you can't cast anything ... Teferi/KP there are still a few spells you can cast and have resolve - your commander, flashback spells from the graveyard, etc.)

I think you're right that assembly is key. The only way I can think of on the spot to get T/KP together is with Insidious Dreams and a draw effect on your turn... and hope they resolve. Unless you're playing Teferi as a general its going to be really hard to tutor up both and have them hit the field.

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