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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 9:52 am 
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cheethorne wrote:
tide spout eliot wrote:
you can use the slot for a much bigger effect on your mana base.


Except it wouldn't replace a card like that, it would replace a basic land. While their might be some 5-colour decks that don't run basic lands, almost all other decks run a few, and a mox can adequately replace a basic land. Your decks would go from having, say, 15 basic lands and 20 other lands to having 13 basic lands, 20 other lands, and 2 moxes (for a 2-colour deck.)

tide spout eliot wrote:
There’s tons of it out there and the number is only getting higher with really good fakes, slightly but yeah still up.


I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that unbanning moxes would be ok because I can get really good fakes to commit fraud against my opponent's? Having to resort to cheating doesn't sound like a good reason to do much of anything.

Mooney wrote:
It seems to me that there are far more cards that destroy or steal nonland permanents and even nonbasic lands than there are that destroy/steal basic lands.


That would be why he said "nearly strictly better". While they are certainly more things that can be done to artifacts than lands, those affects generally have to be used early, otherwise the opponent will have better things to do with his mana and his time than destroying your mana artifacts (and there is way less point to destroy a mox on turn 6+). The large tempo boost you can get from a mox is quite impressive, especially in a three-colour deck, which is more likely to drop one in the first three turns of the game compared to a mono-colour deck.


People already shy away from artifact mana in favor of wood elves. Why would they play the one that gives them the smallest effect? I know I wouldn't cut land for a mox in any mono colored deck with an gauntlet of power and extra planar lens. And otherwise would like a bigger reward for having a mana source get shattered by a shattering pulse, shatter storm, green shatter storm, the other greencshatter storm, r&r, into the core, shattering spree. Return to dust, akromas vengeance, reoccurring shamans, aura shards, dispellers capluse recursion... you get the point. People blow up artifacts in play all thectime, sometime they just need a second for valid targeting, sometimes they just blow up every artifact they can because, well why leave an opponent with something when can't take itfrom them with no consequence. Like issue befor, I'll concede he poit for r,w, or rw. But omg how dare we make the colors better.

No I'm nit saying it's ok to play moxen because people can fake them, or to commit fraud against opponents. You made that up on your own tiger. I'm just saying the amkut of power has gone up due to really good fakes. Some of it is undetectable with out ruining the card, and even real cards fail certain tests. And no one will bend test their moxenif u ask them to. And I'm saying therecare people who will be/are playing with fake moxen and don't know it. They'll never know it, because the fakes are that good. It has nothing to do with the honesty and integrity ofcthe person playing the fake, they have no idea. People counterfeit us currency to amazing degrees of replication all the time, you'd be a fool to think people don't apply this to children's games with pieces worth as much as moxen. Even Major card graders have given the gold star to things later found to be fake. All I'm saying is there is power out there that for all intensive purposes and wasn't been made by wotc. It's a fact. the people who make it are douche bags, but there is a silver lining.

I know this last point wasnt directed at me but: Ive post my reasons why moxen arn't better then land and other ramp more than once. It still holds up. I specificly dealt with why +1 mana isn't to impressive in the format with examples and numbers, your going to havecto do better then telling me it's "impressive". I've also dealt with it's use in multiple colors, and as far ar frequency early is concerned in that line, the "one fur. 2 instead of three, or five instead of four" is lack luster when compared with the fragile coalition relic, cultivate, helm of awakeng effects, or even worn power stone ( yes, wasting your turn three to go to turn six on turn four is better than mox here quite often. And yes late game buying another general cast is also probably better here too).

I can see the "you don't understand what moxen are capable of" statements coming, in fact already got it once in this thread. But it's not true. I play a lot of vintage, have for years I've top 8'd a lot of big events, including many ICBM opens. Even took some down. I know what they can do, but I understand how much of that IS CONTEXT.

I don't really think moxen will get unbanned. But if hell froze over, it wouldn't be as cold as you'd expect.



*Sorry a head of time if the auto correct butchers this post, I'm not at home

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 9:56 am 
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green slime wrote:
So Kaldare, you won't mind then if we remove any Sol Ring or Mana Crypt from your deck(s)? Because, I mean, they are all just as easily destructible in your meta. No one would barely even notice if we gouged them out of your deck and replaced with them with basic lands? Least of all you. Right?

Come to think of it, why play with mana rocks at all? It's all just junk lying on the table waiting to get its teeth kicked in by some esoteric Jokulhaups, oops, I meant shatterstorm.


You've failed to correctly evaluate the reward of tempoing up two turns in exchange for the shatter potential. In considerably more than one turns tempo.

It boils down to high risk higher reward.


Can you tell from my post frequency I'm in a waiting room?

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:05 am 
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tide spout eliot wrote:
Sinis wrote:
If moxen were legal in the format I would absolutely play them. That they're nearly strictly better than basic lands (which I tend to run at least a moderate number of them) is reason enough. Not enough sweepers deal with artifacts, and if the whining about Ring/Crypt/Vault were any evidence, people don't run enough artifact destruction either.


I really think the bolded part isn’t very true; you can use the slot for a much bigger effect on your mana base. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how efficient your play is if it just isn’t high powered enough. I wouldn’t play emerald over cultivate, k’s reach, or explosive vegetation. Is more mana and fixes across more colors without being shattered.


See, there's a flaw in your logic here. You wouldn't play Emerald over Kodama's Reach/Cultivate (and neither would I in this format), but the very fact you are playing Kodama's Reach/Cultivate belies a different fact: You are running basic lands, and, a significant number of them. That means you slot out one stinking forest for Mox Emerald. Nowhere does my statement imply that you should chuck cultivate or Kodama's for it. I'm saying that Mox Emerald is probably better in place of one of the 10+ forests your running. Sometimes, it'll be a somewhat vulnerable basic land. Other times, you'll be playing Kodama's/Cultivate on turn 2 instead of 3. I'm sure you must see that as an advantage of running a Mox Emerald instead of a basic forest. Even if I was holding a shatter, I'm not sure I would target a Mox with it (unless it had buyback); there are many other more threatening artifacts. I would not want to wreck a Mox only to be rammed by a duplicant later.

Quote:
As far as the issues about the amount of power. I have this discussion with dealers all the time. It comes up when you play a lot of vintage. There’s tons of it out there and the number is only getting higher with really good fakes, slightly but yeah still up. The MIA power is going to stay uncirculated and people generally destroying hundreds of dollars of their own money (well not in that way anyways). Most of it is across the pond but we definitely have enough here in the US and edh won’t increase the demand anyways.

I disagree. Since you've spoken to a lot of dealers, you'll know that the price of dual lands was increasing before the impact of legacy on the secondary market. EDH players were going after dual lands and that was affecting prices. Same thing with cards like High Market, now worth many times more than it was a few years ago.

Quote:
Discouraging new players isn’t much of an issue for EDH as I see it. Either you buy into the self-regulated play group thing or it’s already very easy to price people out and make them sad and not play.

That it is already easy is not a good reason to make it easier. Firstly, there is a somewhat comfortable ceiling on price (dependent on your level of comfort, of course). With a fair sum of money, you can have a near-optimal deck, and the pricy staples that go in every deck are generally no more than 70$ (Mana crypt?). Unbanning moxen creates a staple for every given deck that costs several times that, possibly more than all the other every deck staple combined (Sol Ring, SDT, Crypt, Vault, etc.). There is a matter of scale here that I don't think is being addressed.
Quote:
As far as most things are concerned, I don’t think banning the perceivable unattainable is a good thing, then people just settle for mediocrity.
I remember thinking power would likely never be obtainable, but after some trading and taking down some events I made it happen.

I think there are a high number of non-mediocre cards that remain unbanned. Secondly, not everyone has your apparently indomitable will to get them (moxen). They want a hobby, and want to spend maybe a couple of hundred bucks on it, as though they were a couple of board games. Once people start slinging Moxen, they think that it's no longer a hobby and it isn't a hobby.

I understand your perspective, but I want to say (without substantiation) that you're in the minority. Most people I have met and talked to say that they will likely never own moxes, or even stuff like Mishra's workshop. I will likely never own moxes because I don't have the time to plow through those events, or play through standard legal tournaments for moxen, even though I would really like to. I'm confident I could, but I have a wife and kid. I play games when I have time, and I absolutely do not have time to play competitive formats with Moxen on the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:25 am 
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Sinis wrote:
Even if I was holding a shatter, I'm not sure I would target a Mox with it (unless it had buyback); there are many other more threatening artifacts. I would not want to wreck a Mox only to be rammed by a duplicant later.

You seem to have forgotten about the large amount of nonland permanent boardwipes played in EDH. No one has to target your mox specifically when they can just play Shatterstorm, Creeping Mold, Fracturing Gust, Planar Cleansing, Akroma's Vengeance, Nevinyrral's Disk, Magus of the Disk, Oblivion Stone, Elspeth Tirel, Child of Alara, Plague Boiler, Pernicious Deed, Austere Command, Pulverize, Purify, Scourglass, or Serenity.

These are, of course, in addition to cards like Naturalize, Disenchant, Return to Dust, Dust to Dust, and other artifact removal.

My point is that minor mana accel in EDH is not as big a deal as it is in other formats because of the large number of boardwipes and the fact that you have a 12/99 chance of drawing it in your first 5 turns. Sure, you'll be ahead 1 mana for a short time assuming you play it on the same turn you play a land, but if you draw it late game when the wipes start hitting hard you're just screwing yourself out of a decent draw. All I can see moxen being good for late game is putting a counter on Fogotten Anceint for free or cracking a Decree of Silence.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:56 am 
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@ sinis
1. I really don't think its a flaw in my logic. I think your not evaluating the critical turn number correctly, how many lands ar in a typical opener correctly, or the frequency of getting a mox in a 99 carrd deck. Replacing a basic forest for mox doesn't simply equate to "I play as normal but a turn a faster!" in multicolor deck you have access to better fixing, ur opening yourself up to a shakier mana base to to designed infliction or simple colateral dmg, and otherwise in mono you have a nearly irrelevant early turn play due to context or you draw a mox late game that taps for half to a fifth the amount as a basic would. It's more of a contextual reality than a logical flaw. Pure and simple theory versus mechanics, mechanics always wins.

2. It really depends on if people will play them. I say no, you say yes. Supply and demand. Where we sit on point one dictates where we sit on point two. Side note dual lands pre legacy price high high other factors like the proxy vintage spurt years ago. It's not like legacy is the only factor on dual prices.

3. Easy versus more easy isn't really the issue. And we're assuming the impact of moxen is significant in the format to be able to say "easier" at all, which is debatable. Cab u think of a constant blow out senario involving moxen that's worse than wrath of god+ miojin of night reach. (I'm going to cut you off cat the pas and tell you "earlier wrath and miojin" are not real ansewer because the clearly degenerate and antisocial multiplayer card here is clearly miojin.) that's going to be very hard to do because moxen rant as active in this context as in vintage. And they wont be.

4. I was speaking more in a general, sense but yeah I was speaks about moxen as well. My will wasn't "indomitable", but I thank you for the compliment. Vintage is a long term hobby of mine that I take seriously when I have time I guess. I didn't decide one day I would have them. Just kindacended up with some, and realized how disposable parts of my binder were in trade to me for others. In general vintage tournaments are pretty laid back right now. I play at a non local gs once a month on Sunday. I make sure I make time for it most of the time as "the thing I like to do", and people also not from the areas with wife and kids do as well. There are more cut throat. Events I won't attnd unless I'm fine tuned but you can definitely show up on win prize bracket on a random day if your fundamentals are solid. Owning moxen isn't as far fetched as you think, provided it's not impossible for you to go to any event ever. Which I hope it isn't, cuz I'm always happy to play some vintages with new players and shoot the shit. I've had a lot of friends that way.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:01 am 
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Mooney wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Even if I was holding a shatter, I'm not sure I would target a Mox with it (unless it had buyback); there are many other more threatening artifacts. I would not want to wreck a Mox only to be rammed by a duplicant later.

You seem to have forgotten about the large amount of nonland permanent boardwipes played in EDH. No one has to target your mox specifically when they can just play Shatterstorm, Creeping Mold, Fracturing Gust, Planar Cleansing, Akroma's Vengeance, Nevinyrral's Disk, Magus of the Disk, Oblivion Stone, Elspeth Tirel, Child of Alara, Plague Boiler, Pernicious Deed, Austere Command, Pulverize, Purify, Scourglass, or Serenity.
Creeping Mold is not a sweeper. Some of these see play infrequenlty (Child of Alara, Serenity). I have never seen a Planar Cleansing, Purify or Pulverize played, ever. Pernicious and especially Plague Boiler are in a handful of decks. Elspeth going off is hardly guaranteed; at a multiplayer table you better believe Elspeth is going to get rammed by people who stand to lose stuff for her popping.

I understand and acknowledged that sweepers will be a problem. But the risk/reward is worth it. People are always whining about how a first turn sol ring warps the game, and some of them go as far to say that part of the reason is because it comes into play untapped. I hardly think that people aren't going to play moxen because they're afraid of artifact destruction, but at the very same time they're willing to play Crypt/Ring/Vault with no such fears.
Quote:
These are, of course, in addition to cards like Naturalize, Disenchant, Return to Dust, Dust to Dust, and other artifact removal.
K. You can bust my pseudo-land for 2-4 mana with your enchantment/artifact hate. You'll pay for it later when someone plays Solitary Confinement with Necropotence, or hurls a Cauldron of Souls before they sweep.

The very fact that my Ring/Crypt/Vault rarely gets spot removed leads me to believe Moxen are a pretty safe play. The fact that they often don't get swept because people are running wrath over planar cleansing, all is dust over disk, gives me further confidence. I'm not saying that I don't see O-stone. I'm saying that I don't see it as often as the other answers people run.
Quote:
My point is that minor mana accel in EDH is not as big a deal as it is in other formats because of the large number of boardwipes and the fact that you have a 12/99 chance of drawing it in your first 5 turns. Sure, you'll be ahead 1 mana for a short time assuming you play it on the same turn you play a land, but if you draw it late game when the wipes start hitting hard you're just screwing yourself out of a decent draw. All I can see moxen being good for late game is putting a counter on Fogotten Anceint for free or cracking a Decree of Silence.

1. People aren't going to Planar Cleansing or Akroma's Vengeance on turn 4, just to swat your Mox. There is more dangerous stuff in the pipeline. The exception is Shatterstorm, which some people play just to tilt at artifact mana, and that's a legit meta call. I also have serious doubts that you will lose your moxen incidentally without them doing some legwork first. Also, I hope your'e not just leaving them on the table just 'cause, because there's no reason for that (see point 2b).
2a. Late game, it will likely not matter that it's an artifact. Sure, it might get swept, but at that point, you're all established and everything, and losing one land to a sweeper isn't a big deal.
2b. If you draw it late game, you don't just lay it on the table unless you've got a full grip and no reliquary tower. You play it when you're about to use it, and that means that it will be available for that haymaker spell, no matter how many shatterstorms are at the table. All this talk about sweepers is hilarious: if your Mox has been destroyed in a sweep, it has almost certainly already done the damage it was supposed to do; if you played the mox without playing anything with it, you made yourself vulnerable for no reason. If you cultivate on turn 2, and your buddy shatterstorms on turn 4, you still played your cultivate on turn 2, and your turn 4 is going to be way more devastating that shatterstorm.
2c. I hope those people running shatterstorm, vengeance, etc. aren't running artifact mana of their own :roll:
3. I think all this talk about vulnerabilities underwrites the non-ramp benefits. Like, a storm count, let's say.

I have a huge amount of trouble believing all you folks who are arguing so hard about how bad moxen (even compared to basic lands!) are in EDH are not going to run them in your decks in the event of an unbanning, even in the face of shatterstorm (except perhaps tide spout eliot, whose analysis of the situation is consistent, even if it disagrees with mine).

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:08 am 

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Yeah. (IOW: Go Sinis!)


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:22 am 
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tide spout eliot wrote:
@ sinis
1. I really don't think its a flaw in my logic. I think your not evaluating the critical turn number correctly, how many lands ar in a typical opener correctly, or the frequency of getting a mox in a 99 carrd deck. Replacing a basic forest for mox doesn't simply equate to "I play as normal but a turn a faster!" in multicolor deck you have access to better fixing, ur opening yourself up to a shakier mana base to to designed infliction or simple colateral dmg, and otherwise in mono you have a nearly irrelevant early turn play due to context or you draw a mox late game that taps for half to a fifth the amount as a basic would. It's more of a contextual reality than a logical flaw. Pure and simple theory versus mechanics, mechanics always wins.

I'm saying that if you're willing to run Cultivate/Kodama's/Explosive Veg, you ought to be willing to run a Mox, because you're already running mono-coloured basic lands, and one less isn't going to hurt your cultivate/Kodama's/Explosive Veg plays.

I understand that it isn't merely "a turn faster", and that the vast majority of the time it will be the equivalent of a vulnerable basic land (once it's on the table). I just think that vulnerability is negligible, especially given my experience with the 'broken' legal mana rocks.

Quote:
2. It really depends on if people will play them. I say no, you say yes. Supply and demand. Where we sit on point one dictates where we sit on point two. Side note dual lands pre legacy price high high other factors like the proxy vintage spurt years ago. It's not like legacy is the only factor on dual prices.
You'll forgive me for not finding your argument compelling, but I think people will play them. I don't think the vulnerabilities are all that bad. I've stated why in my previous post. Even if they are not worth playing, their value will go up because people will want to play them.
Quote:
3. Easy versus more easy isn't really the issue. And we're assuming the impact of moxen is significant in the format to be able to say "easier" at all, which is debatable. Cab u think of a constant blow out senario involving moxen that's worse than wrath of god+ miojin of night reach. (I'm going to cut you off cat the pas and tell you "earlier wrath and miojin" are not real ansewer because the clearly degenerate and antisocial multiplayer card here is clearly miojin.) that's going to be very hard to do because moxen rant as active in this context as in vintage. And they wont be.

Decks that play on an early clock will get the most benefit. Hermit Ooze goes a turn faster (they run lotus petal and Elvish Spirit guide, and every other 0 mana card that will likely give them mana, Mox Emerald et al. wont be any different). Clique in 1v1 goes a turn faster. Zur will go a turn faster.

Obviously these 'blowout' scenarios aren't the same as Black Myojin/Wrath, but I think some of those decks are problematic enough. Any deck that defines a clock based on when and what it can play is going to be one turn better. Those decks already run 'disposable moxen', like lotus petal, and are already reaching so hard to play a turn early. An actual Mox would be another one on the heap. This isn't going to be a "Haha, I drew my mox and won!" scenario, but it will make problematic decks more consistent and fast with the inclusion of a mox or two.

Quote:
4. I was speaking more in a general, sense but yeah I was speaks about moxen as well. My will wasn't "indomitable", but I thank you for the compliment. Vintage is a long term hobby of mine that I take seriously when I have time I guess. I didn't decide one day I would have them. Just kindacended up with some, and realized how disposable parts of my binder were in trade to me for others. In general vintage tournaments are pretty laid back right now. I play at a non local gs once a month on Sunday. I make sure I make time for it most of the time as "the thing I like to do", and people also not from the areas with wife and kids do as well. There are more cut throat. Events I won't attnd unless I'm fine tuned but you can definitely show up on win prize bracket on a random day if your fundamentals are solid. Owning moxen isn't as far fetched as you think, provided it's not impossible for you to go to any event ever. Which I hope it isn't, cuz I'm always happy to play some vintages with new players and shoot the shit. I've had a lot of friends that way.

I am largely tied to the Toronto area. I haven't played magic competitively ever (though I have played other games competitively and done well). I do not have a card library with anything valuable, except my Mana Crypt; most of my cards are complete jank from the fourth edition/ice age/fallen empires and homelands sets (I usually buy singles for EDH decks). If I tried, I could make a competitive event perhaps once a month, if I'm lucky. I would never have time to playtest anything, and would have to resort entirely to netdecking. I am not wealthy, nor do I have a particularly good job (in fact, I'm doing a Master's degree with a scholarship right now, which means I have an income, but it isn't great). I do not have much disposable income. Moxen, currently, be out of reach. Even investing in a deck for legacy or standard would be stretching my budget.

Now, once I'm done my masters at the end of this year, and once I've gotten a job after that, I'll absolutely gun for them. But, I don't think they're within just anyone's reach.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:23 am 
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Sinis wrote:
People are always whining about how a first turn sol ring warps the game, and some of them go as far to say that part of the reason is because it comes into play untapped. I hardly think that people aren't going to play moxen because they're afraid of artifact destruction, but at the very same time they're willing to play Crypt/Ring/Vault with no such fears.

But, are those the same groups of people? Or are they different groups?

I myself own the moxes, the workshops, the bazaars, etc. I also totally agree with what the RC is saying about how the inclusion of moxes would affect the format.

Locally, we used to have vintage tournaments -- then people stopped playing because they saw that those with the power-X cards were winning - because they were that powerful. Even tournaments allowing proxies went downhill, as people just weren't as interested in the types of games that Vintage allows (they can be very swing-y from a single draw.)

That opinion, justified or not, would get applied to EDH if the moxes were unbanned. Most people don't form first opinions based on rational thought, but on instinct, previous experiences, and what they have been told about. As such, they won't look at moxes in EDH as being different from Vintage at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:34 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Sinis wrote:
People are always whining about how a first turn sol ring warps the game, and some of them go as far to say that part of the reason is because it comes into play untapped. I hardly think that people aren't going to play moxen because they're afraid of artifact destruction, but at the very same time they're willing to play Crypt/Ring/Vault with no such fears.

But, are those the same groups of people? Or are they different groups?


A fair point, but I don't think it's a particularly strong one.

Some people are willing to play Crypt/Ring/Vault. Enough people play them that there have been heated debates to whether they should be banned or not, within the last few months. Almost everyone can agree that these at least Crypt/Ring are good cards, and should be included in almost every deck. I have a huge amount of trouble believing that a significant number of people are willing to play Crypt/Ring/Vault, but not Mox(en)/Crypt/Ring/Vault, specifically because they're afraid of artifact destruction. That kind of logical disconnect is far too great a feat for most, I think.

One might argue that the environment will change, and we will see more artifact hate in all decks, but I doubt it. If Crypt/Ring/Vault doesn't spur people to action, I don't see how 1-3 additional moxen in any given deck will either, especially in a climate of 'one-for-ones are bad' or 'cards with narrow uses are not favoured'.

Quote:
I myself own the moxes, the workshops, the bazaars, etc. I also totally agree with what the RC is saying about how the inclusion of moxes would affect the format.

Locally, we used to have vintage tournaments -- then people stopped playing because they saw that those with the power-X cards were winning - because they were that powerful. Even tournaments allowing proxies went downhill, as people just weren't as interested in the types of games that Vintage allows (they can be very swing-y from a single draw.)

That opinion, justified or not, would get applied to EDH if the moxes were unbanned. Most people don't form first opinions based on rational thought, but on instinct, previous experiences, and what they have been told about. As such, they won't look at moxes in EDH as being different from Vintage at all.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 12:18 pm 
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At sinus


1. Again I disagree, a willingness to run cultivate, the other cultivat, and explosive vegetation does and should not equate to willingness to run mox. You need to give me a real reason if you want to share your point of view about that. something concrete and specific like I've done, you had a number of tries now and havent moved beyond "you should" or that it's "impressive", note how with me "you shouldn't" and "not impressive" are followed up for reasons why. The same goes with "it's not going to hurt". I've pointed out that it can hurt as far as 2 to 5 times the mana as a basic land in situations. And it's not because of the land fetch mentioned above, idk why you're tieing that in there. The cards above are just better exceleration in the format for raw effect, lack of fragility, and color fixing.

I gave a pretty good list have cards that wouldn't hesitate to blow up moxen for little to no cost to the controller. It's better than the other guys list by a long shot. On the table artifact mana is MORE at risk than on the table lands because more thnigs kill artifacts that land. Wotc goes out of its way to make mana bases relatively safe nowadays and have for a while now. The point is that the artifact mana is at risk when it matters and subject to being collateral damage even when it doesn't, this isn't nearly as true for bausic lands. Yeah people might leave a mox there, but that's because it contextually isnt that good at the time, which would be most of the time in.

2. I didn't find you argument compelling either, and still don't . It equates to "demand will go up cuz I say it will"

3. The degenerate problem with hermit ooze is hermit ooze, not the lotus petal and spirit guide.
The degenerate problem is v clique in 1v1 is that your playing 1v1 edh, the rules comity doesn't even acknowledge it as a real thing. I'm sure if they did , like they have over seas, they'd put clique right next to rofellos because of how un fun it is as a whole.

Contextually any clock defined by when it can play thing is not always one turn better because of moxen. Mono black decks can easily find them selves -4 mana because that mox wasn't a basic swamp. Decks with lotus petal are generally either desperate for the fixing or already doing something degenerate. This format is not nearly as mox friendly as something like vintage where "aha, I drew a mox and I win" definitely happens.
I've put my brain to the test to think of ways moxen would be broken, everything I come up wth just points to a bigger issuescthat would just happen anyways and be just as bad for the format with out moxen, like the examples you've mentioned.

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tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

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Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 12:54 pm 
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Location: Toronto, ON
tide spout eliot wrote:
1. Again I disagree, a willingness to run cultivate, the other cultivat, and explosive vegetation does and should not equate to willingness to run mox. You need to give me a real reason if you want to share your point of view about that. something concrete and specific like I've done, you had a number of tries now and havent moved beyond "you should" or that it's "impressive", note how with me "you shouldn't" and "not impressive" are followed up for reasons why. The same goes with "it's not going to hurt". I've pointed out that it can hurt as far as 2 to 5 times the mana as a basic land in situations. And it's not because of the land fetch mentioned above, idk why you're tieing that in there. The cards above are just better exceleration in the format for raw effect, lack of fragility, and color fixing.


Alright, it's going to be hard to concretely say how Moxen are going to cause degeneracy. It is much easier for someone to say "Moxen are destroyed by x, y, z when basic lands aren't" than it is for me to say exactly how one extra mana a turn early is going to work to your benefit in a 100 card format without throwing out dream scenarios. It's like the Wrath/Myojin example. You said that an 'earlier wrath/myojin' was not an acceptable answer because Myojin was the degenerate card in that equation. But, the actual ability to cast Myojin should not be discounted. If a card added BBBWW7 to your mana pool with a casting cost of 0 (the blackest lotus?), we would call this card really friggin' broken, even if you promptly use it to cast a Wrath of God and a Myojin of Night's Reach (more powerful/broken cards). At some point, the cards that enable unacceptable plays are part of the problem. Claiming the problem to be Myojin of Night's Reach in that scenario would be incredibly disingenuous. Similarly people are calling Hermit Druid broken because it enables more broken stuff. Enabling via fast mana is a balance issue.

It's like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. But guns are somehow part of the equation, aren't they?

In short: My reason for calling Moxen auto-includes ahead of basic lands is that they are better in nearly all cases, and that their vulnerabilities are acceptable to me. Maybe your environment is different from the ones I've played in, but I have seldom run into artifact hate on my mox-like cards, like Crypt. That makes me feel like Moxen are a safe play, and are to be played ahead of basic lands because of the advantages involved. YMMV.

Quote:
I gave a pretty good list have cards that wouldn't hesitate to blow up moxen for little to no cost to the controller. It's better than the other guys list by a long shot. On the table artifact mana is MORE at risk than on the table lands because more thnigs kill artifacts that land. Wotc goes out of its way to make mana bases relatively safe nowadays and have for a while now. The point is that the artifact mana is at risk when it matters and subject to being collateral damage even when it doesn't, this isn't nearly as true for bausic lands. Yeah people might leave a mox there, but that's because it contextually isnt that good at the time, which would be most of the time in.


I'll buy those vulnerabilities from your list. That's fine, sometimes your opponent will draw their artifact hate, and sometimes it wont cost them anything to chuck it at your mox because it's Aura Shards and there's no reason not to. I am saying that those particular risks are acceptable for the general reward a Mox will bring. That one turn ramp to cast whatever is worth the 5 mana you'll throw into a shattering pulse. Sometimes the other guy wont draw their artifact hate. Sometimes it wont even matter, because you're on turn 10.

Quote:
2. I didn't find you argument compelling either, and still don't . It equates to "demand will go up cuz I say it will"

The value going up is contingent on people playing it. I think that people will play it, even if you're right and that there isn't a good reason to. You do not. There isn't much more to say about it.
Quote:
3. The degenerate problem with hermit ooze is hermit ooze, not the lotus petal and spirit guide.
The degenerate problem is v clique in 1v1 is that your playing 1v1 edh, the rules comity doesn't even acknowledge it as a real thing. I'm sure if they did , like they have over seas, they'd put clique right next to rofellos because of how un fun it is as a whole.

Contextually any clock defined by when it can play thing is not always one turn better because of moxen. Mono black decks can easily find them selves -4 mana because that mox wasn't a basic swamp. Decks with lotus petal are generally either desperate for the fixing or already doing something degenerate. This format is not nearly as mox friendly as something like vintage where "aha, I drew a mox and I win" definitely happens.
I've put my brain to the test to think of ways moxen would be broken, everything I come up wth just points to a bigger issuescthat would just happen anyways and be just as bad for the format with out moxen, like the examples you've mentioned.

My argument is that enabling broken combos faster is not good either. At some point cards that enable broken combos are degenerate in their own right. Hermit Druid does nothing on its own. It's only once you start including cards your deck that are going to let you auto-win in a moment does it become problematic. Well, moxen do nothing on their own except be vulnerable to things that lands wouldn't be. But, that's an incomplete analysis.

All and every good play you can think of can potentially be put out earlier by a Mox. An earlier Grand Arbiter, an earlier time stretch, an earlier Hermit Druid. Moxen, unlike the things that currently occupy their space (basic lands) are vulnerable in unique and interesting ways. You trade potential vulnerability for potential speed, on this I'm sure we can both agree. You don't think the trade is worth it in EDH, but I do. Perhaps that's a virtue of your greater experience. Perhaps our environments are different. At the end of the day, some people will agree with my point of view, and some with yours.

But if the distribution of agreement is 50/50, it will affect the secondary market. All this aside, Carthain's argument is better. Player perceptions are much more important for the health of this format than actual mechanical interactions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 2:24 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
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Nearly all the "moxen aren't worth it" arguments revolve around it being swept aside by board wipes.

Have you considered the interaction between moxen and engines? Getting a card advantage engine in play a turn earlier implies an extra turn's useage from it. That at least covers the card advantage lost if/when a moxen is nuked later. Plus all the turns between playing the mox and having it wiped you're up a mana and all the benefit that implies.

Arguing that a basic land is better than a mox is just ridiculous. I run artifact lands in my sharuum deck and consider it worth the sweeper risk just for the synergy with trinket mage/tezzerets/thirst for knowledge/etc. Those benefits pale in comparison to no-tempo-loss acceleration.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 2:35 pm 
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Tremor wrote:
Nearly all the "moxen aren't worth it" arguments revolve around it being swept aside by board wipes.

Have you considered the interaction between moxen and engines? Getting a card advantage engine in play a turn earlier implies an extra turn's useage from it. That at least covers the card advantage lost if/when a moxen is nuked later. Plus all the turns between playing the mox and having it wiped you're up a mana and all the benefit that implies.

Arguing that a basic land is better than a mox is just ridiculous. I run artifact lands in my sharuum deck and consider it worth the sweeper risk just for the synergy with trinket mage/tezzerets/thirst for knowledge/etc. Those benefits pale in comparison to no-tempo-loss acceleration.

This assumes that you draw the mox while you still have lands to play and you haven't missed any land drops. If you've missed one or more land drops, it's a catch-up card. If you draw it when you have no lands in hand, it's not putting you ahead by anything.

Nearly all the arguments in favor of the moxen seem to rely on the very small chance that it's in your opening hand or the first couple cards you draw.

It's value is very situational, but I do realize that it works better than basic lands in a few situations, like Tezzeret searching for 0. In fact, it seems like blue is the only color that would actually have any reason to run one. Green much prefers lands over artifacts, white has the most nonland boardwipes, red destroys artifacts and lands alike, and black really just needs Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 5:28 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
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If you regularly miss land drops, then your decks are poorly built. The longer a game goes, the further ahead of the '1 card per turn' count you should be.

If you play a 3-color deck, your chance of having a turn 1 mox is 23%. That's not insignificant.

And realistically, you're probably also playing sol ring and mana crypt, and the new partial paris rule greatly increases your chances of having some kind of fast start.


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