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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 9:48 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
It's the simple case of two opposite perspectives.

Me: I own duals, therefore I want duals to be legal in EDH.
Person with no duals: I have no duals and no means of getting them, therefore I want duals to be banned.

Person with Moxen: I own Moxen, therefore I want Moxen unbanned.
Me: I own no Moxen, therefore I want Moxen to stay banned.

If you own or have the necessary means to own the cards on the banned list it is understandable that you wish to play with those cards. Unfortunately for you, the population that owns Moxen far outnumber those who don't. On top of that, I think it is safe to say, most of us who don't own them probably can't afford them either.

As for duals, they are much easier to aquire. Mono-colored decks don't run them. For a three color deck, you only need three duals (compared to three moxen that's a big difference). Those of us who own duals, aren't as outrageously outnumbered by those who don't. For those who don't own duals, there are decent replacements. Also, the trading or purchasing of duals isn't that far out of reach for most players.

Therefore, I'm pretty sure the Moxen will stay banned for as long as the current Rules Team is in place. Personally, I'm totally fine with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm trying ot understand where people's ideas are coming from and have one question befor I say anything.

who here actually cast moxen regularly?

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Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:15 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
American_Kid wrote:
It's the simple case of two opposite perspectives.

Me: I own duals, therefore I want duals to be legal in EDH.
Person with no duals: I have no duals and no means of getting them, therefore I want duals to be banned.

Person with Moxen: I own Moxen, therefore I want Moxen unbanned.
Me: I own no Moxen, therefore I want Moxen to stay banned.

I'm not sure this holds. I own zero revised or ABU duals. I once did (one Scrubland and one Tropical Island, which were involved in a trade for an unlimited Time Walk). I also own no rare fetchlands, from Onslaught or Zendikar.

I don't feel duals need to be banned in EDH. I think they serve a purpose in the game, and that they have their own special vulnerabilities (Sundering Titan?).

Moxes? We already have people at the doors calling for Sol Ring and Mana Crypt to be banned (I have never heard a compelling argument for Mana Vault, and seems to suffer from guilt by association). It seems foolish to unban more of the same 'problem'. Additionally, despite owning a Time Walk and never having an opportunity to play it, I think it should remain banned. I'll stick with my mint condition Mirage Final Fortune instead.

Moxes ought to remain banned, on cost and availability alone. There are millions of revised dual lands in circulation. Millions. The same cannot (I think) be said for Moxen.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have been fighting for the mox to be unbanned for the singleton reason that sol ring is better,so for that reason the mox shouldn't be ban

aka BAN SOL RING MANA CRYPT MANA VAULT PLEASE

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:36 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Sinis wrote:
Moxes? We already have people at the doors calling for Sol Ring and Mana Crypt to be banned (I have never heard a compelling argument for Mana Vault, and seems to suffer from guilt by association).
Kirby wrote:
I have been fighting for the mox to be unbanned for the singleton reason that sol ring is better,so for that reason the mox shouldn't be ban

aka BAN SOL RING MANA CRYPT MANA VAULT PLEASE

:roll:

1. Sol Ring > Moxen
2. Mana Vault = Sol Ring (or near enough)
3. Moxen are banned.
4. Therefore, ban Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault.

Am I getting this right? Our posts are less than 10 minutes apart. Either the irony is delicious, or the sarcasm is totally flying over my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:39 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Moxes? We already have people at the doors calling for Sol Ring and Mana Crypt to be banned (I have never heard a compelling argument for Mana Vault, and seems to suffer from guilt by association).
Kirby wrote:
I have been fighting for the mox to be unbanned for the singleton reason that sol ring is better,so for that reason the mox shouldn't be ban

aka BAN SOL RING MANA CRYPT MANA VAULT PLEASE

:roll:

1. Sol Ring > Moxen
2. Mana Vault = Sol Ring (or near enough)
3. Moxen are banned.
4. Therefore, ban Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault.

Am I getting this right? Our posts are less than 10 minutes apart. Either the irony is delicious, or the sarcasm is totally flying over my head.

hmm not necessarily #2 but over all yea(sol ring is better then mana vault IMO)
Why would a format ban shock but leave lighting bolt untouched?

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:41 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
American_Kid wrote:
Unfortunately for you, the population that owns Moxen far outnumber those who don't. On top of that, I think it is safe to say, most of us who don't own them probably can't afford them either.

You meant the other way around, right?
American_Kid wrote:
As for duals, they are much easier to aquire.

Alpha Run - 2.6 Million cards
Beta Run - 7.3 Million cards
Unlimited - 35 Million cards
Revised - ~500 Million cards (numbers taken from Wiki, based on WotC numbers)

I can't fathom (nor will WotC say) how the print sheets were allocated, but there should be several hundred thousand of each Revised dual land printed, as opposed to there maybe being 20,000 of each Moxen/Lotus ever made (I've read only 1,400 Alpha)?
American_Kid wrote:
Therefore, I'm pretty sure the Moxen will stay banned for as long as the current Rules Team is in place. Personally, I'm totally fine with this.

That, and the RC probably don't have Moxen either :cry: I agree with everything you say, I just threw big numbers out to stamp home the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:50 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
American_Kid wrote:
Therefore, I'm pretty sure the Moxen will stay banned for as long as the current Rules Team is in place. Personally, I'm totally fine with this.


The fact that almost all, if not all, of the RC has multiple moxes would seem to make the rest of your post problematic.

The bottom line is, ignoring everything else, lotus/moxen create a perceived barrier to entry that we are not interested in encouraging. A player who sees a mox in play is going to have a very different perception of the format than a player who sees a Gate to the Aether in play.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 10:51 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Kirby wrote:
hmm not necessarily #2 but over all yea(sol ring is better then mana vault IMO)
Why would a format ban shock but leave lighting bolt untouched?

That was a typo, I meant to say "2. Mana Crypt = Sol Ring" Sol ring is clearly better than Mana Vault.

But, the typo and your reaction to it goes to show that there isn't a clear reason to ban Mana Vault. Your fairly certain that Mana Vault is worse than Ring/Crypt. It's because Mana Vault is obviously worse than Ring and Crypt. Even if it was clear that Ring and Crypt were ban-worthy (and I'm not sure it is), it's not clear that Vault is ban-worthy in the same way that it's not clear that Dark Ritual is ban-worthy.

One time Mana Advantage of two or greater. Big deal. Guilt by association. But this isn't about Crypt/Ring/Vault.

Your analogy to Shock and Lightning bolt is flawed. If there were only a few hundred thousand shocks in the world compared to many millions of lightning bolts, it would make more sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 11:08 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kirby wrote:
I have been fighting for the mox to be unbanned for the singleton reason that sol ring is better,so for that reason the mox shouldn't be ban

The moxes are not banned solely because of power. Thus, that argument doesn't hold up when compared to Sol Ring.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 12:25 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Edh banlist doesn't follow any real reason, protocal, or pay attention to any precedence. Which is stupid. In edh moxen are less broken than sol ring due to the high cc of the format. It also gives non green decks access to a mana ramp of +1, oooooo scary.they won't be unbanned because of the dollar amount and the whining. And things far worse than moxen will stay unbanned because of the whining.


Sorry for all the typos I'm typing this on my phone.

_________________
tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 12:33 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tide spout eliot wrote:
Edh banlist doesn't follow any real reason, protocal, or pay attention to any precedence. Which is stupid. In edh moxen are less broken than sol ring due to the high cc of the format. It also gives non green decks access to a mana ramp of +1, oooooo scary.they won't be unbanned because of the dollar amount and the whining. And things far worse than moxen will stay unbanned because of the whining.
Sorry for all the typos I'm typing this on my phone.

*highfive*
this is my mind set,So i think im done with "ban this" threadds as our options mean noting and RC just ban things on the styero types of cards (like power nine ect)

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A real man's dragon deck
Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 12:35 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
tide spout eliot wrote:
Edh banlist doesn't follow any real reason, protocal, or pay attention to any precedence. Which is stupid. In edh moxen are less broken than sol ring due to the high cc of the format. It also gives non green decks access to a mana ramp of +1, oooooo scary.they won't be unbanned because of the dollar amount and the whining. And things far worse than moxen will stay unbanned because of the whining.


Sorry for all the typos I'm typing this on my phone.

Arguably, Moxen are more broken than Sol Ring as the number of colours in a deck increases. I'll buy the argument that Sol Ring is better than a single mox. Cost and availability aside, there are other reasons to keep Moxen banned (and I think cost/availability are perfectly acceptable reasons).

X card is better than Y card is not the only analysis in terms of powerlevel. Cards also need to be examined in terms of their cumulative effect with other cards. If moxen were unbanned (and a player in question is formidably wealthy), five colour decks could run all the moxen, plus Ring/Crypt/Vault. Then, instead of a person occasionally drawing a Sol Ring and steamrolling the table, you'll have a five colour player doing something similar far more often.

That sounds like a reason to keep moxen banned. If Sol Ring is broken, it makes little sense to put more Sol Ring equivalents, or cards similar to Sol Ring in the environment, does it?

Kirby wrote:
*highfive*
this is my mind set,So i think im done with "ban this" threadds as our options mean noting and RC just ban things on the styero types of cards (like power nine ect)

You know that only the 'power 8' are banned, right? Timetwister is legal for play. I strongly doubt that they just ban things on the 'styero types of cards'.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 12:55 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
You know that only the 'power 8' are banned, right? Timetwister is legal for play. I strongly doubt that they just ban things on the 'styero types of cards'.

many people would agree that doesn't even belong in power nine cuz it's not on that powerful in comparson

edit:ontopic point: so they have no reason to ban it

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A real man's dragon deck
Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 1:18 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
They aren't banned for being too powerful. Power doesn't even factor into it, beyond being "good enough that nearly every deck would want them". There are a lot of cards that are so good they go into nearly every deck, but as long as they aren't as ridiculously scarce and expensive as the moxen that's fine.

Plus, comparing them to sol ring and mana crypt aren't going to convince many people that they should be legalized, since those 2 cards are the most popular "this *should* be banned" candidates.

Let me repeat:
The vintage community is TINY, yet moxen are so scarce that despite the tiny demand for them the price is still very high.

The Commander community is much bigger than vintage, and if we also start wanting moxen, the price is going to climb.


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