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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:52 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Not to mention a $100 card is VERY different from a $500 card. I have quite a few cards worth around $100, including Jace, Multiple English Mana Drains, Undeground Seas, etc... And I'm not old guard - I came back into the game with zero cards owned at Alara block. I don't own ANYTHING worth the price of a Tabernacle, Library, and certainly not a Mox and wont; for quite some time. If I spend $50/pay on Magic, I can get a $100 card in 3 pay periods (taking FNM entry fees into account). A $400 card would take 12 pay periods, or almost half a year of my magic budget for one card. That's a HUGE difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 11:01 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Killane wrote:
Not to mention a $100 card is VERY different from a $500 card. I have quite a few cards worth around $100, including Jace, Multiple English Mana Drains, Undeground Seas, etc... And I'm not old guard - I came back into the game with zero cards owned at Alara block. I don't own ANYTHING worth the price of a Tabernacle, Library, and certainly not a Mox and wont; for quite some time. If I spend $50/pay on Magic, I can get a $100 card in 3 pay periods (taking FNM entry fees into account). A $400 card would take 12 pay periods, or almost half a year of my magic budget for one card. That's a HUGE difference.


I am old guard, disappeared between 1999 and 2008 (but retained all my goodies power 9 etc) and I'm having difficulty keeping up with the new stuff! Imagine poor newbs...


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 11:06 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Once I was old guard. When I left the game in 2002 I had 40 beautiful Beta dual lands, many Force of Wills, etc... etc... etc.... sold the lot for just under $10,000. I hate to even think what it would be worth now, likely over $100,000.

On the other hand, I have no student loans.

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Talrand (mono-U tempo/Proteus Staff combo)


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 11:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Never had any Beta Duals... I just never saw the need with my 4x revised. More fool me! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 11:31 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
NM Beta Underground Sea sold for 1225 on ebay the other day, so yeah lol

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 1:19 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
My point was, how often is the mox going to show up against the "new players" you're talking about? Every few games. If that. How often are the duals gonna show up? EVERY SINGLE GAME. So which one are they gonna feel the need for more? Umm... the ones that affect every game by ensuring that their opponent never, ever gets color screwed.

As for scaring people? Most EDH player are NOT trying to 100% optimize their deck. Yes, make your deck good. But if you're not willing to play unless it has every possible card you're pushing it too far. That's just not the point of the format. Maybe commander could do with a few less of those types of players anyway.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 8:59 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

What happens in October 2012?

Saturation of EDH players, removing the rule will benefit more people than it will detriment.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 9:07 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:

Most EDH player are NOT trying to 100% optimize their deck.

You don't need mox to have a 100% optimized deck; the statistics of even getting the mox are far to low in a 99 card deck.


An optimized deck is a deck that constantly lands bombs and card advantage engines when they are needed OR whenever it wants to and protect them. Mox is just another rock; and more rocks is bad since they cut space for actual cards that win.

Unban Bargain if you want "100% optimized decks"


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-15 4:21 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
onlainari wrote:
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

What happens in October 2012?

Saturation of EDH players, removing the rule will benefit more people than it will detriment.

Alright, I'll mark October 5th 2012 on my calendar as the day the music died.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-15 11:45 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Broadly--very broadly--speaking, there has to be a compelling reason to bring a card off the banned list. There is no such reason for the Moxen/Lotus.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-15 1:25 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
Broadly--very broadly--speaking, there has to be a compelling reason to bring a card off the banned list. There is no such reason for the Moxen/Lotus.


And broadly speaking, that seems like the correct attitude. If a card once proved so problematic that it need to be banned, it makes sense to use caution with that card in the future.

However, many of the cards on the list have NEVER been allowed in EDH/Commander. It does NOT make sense to treat these cards the same as the ones that have actually proven to be a problem. This is the boat the moxen are in, as well as at least a few other cards.

PS Does anyone have a history of the banned list? That would be interesting to see.

EDIT: I didn't realize how... new... EDH really was as a format. From looking at these forms it seems modern EDH has only existed since about march of 2007. Before that the rules were quite different. Since then, despite many more in-depth, technical changes, they're remained more or less the same as far as the average player is concerned. So, really, anything that was banned before that has never been tested in modern EDH.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-15 5:49 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Saturation of EDH players, removing the rule will benefit more people than it will detriment.

Alright, I'll mark October 5th 2012 on my calendar as the day the music died.

Get out your dictionary and look up the definition of roughly.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 3:11 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-06 8:31 am
Age: Drake
Location: UK
The banning guidelines really should just be scrapped completely and changed to "what the EDH rules committee wants to ban gets banned". It would stop all these threads popping up pointing out the endless inconsistency and flaws in the current system.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-17 8:57 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sharpe wrote:
The banning guidelines really should just be scrapped completely and changed to "what the EDH rules committee wants to ban gets banned". It would stop all these threads popping up pointing out the endless inconsistency and flaws in the current system.


I'm not seeing "endless" flaws and inconsistencies. Of course there is going to be a certain amount of arbitrariness in any banning system. Live with it.

And threads are ok; WHat is the alternative? No discussion whatsoever? That sounds real interesting... or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-18 3:50 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
onlainari wrote:
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Saturation of EDH players, removing the rule will benefit more people than it will detriment.

Alright, I'll mark October 5th 2012 on my calendar as the day the music died.

Get out your dictionary and look up the definition of roughly.


I Got it out my dictionary and looked up the definition of sarcasm instead...looking into my magical crystal ball, I see the allowing of Un-sets, Collector's Edition and Yu-Gi-Oh! cards as well.

[/sarcasm]

Like Sheldon said, there'd have to be a compelling reason to remove cards off the "banned" list. If Commander was to suddenly become the defacto standard MtG format for the entire world, it would be the only situation compelling enough to do so that I can think up.

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