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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 9:17 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
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Mana Crypt is unplayable in all but hardcore combo
This ain't even close to being true.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 9:32 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
The moxen are banned because we don't want people to think they need them to play EDH. If someone finds the rules page, looks at the banned list, and doesn't see the moxen there, they're going to automatically assume it's Vintage 2.0. And someone with that mindset isn't going to waste their time reading more about the format, so pretty much the only way the playerbase would grow is if those potential new players talk to some of the current players and learn about the true nature of the format that way.

There's also the fact that the moxen are significantly more powerful in hyper-competitive fast (probably combo) decks than in the actual casual decks this format is about. The typical EDH deck isn't going to benefit much from an extra land drop that dies to mass removal (I mean, they're better-than-Signets good, but not $200 good), but additional free mana artifacts would be huge for all the people who only want to end the game before anyone can play Magic.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 10:17 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-27 10:19 am
Age: Drake
Location: Midwest, USA
Filth wrote:
There's also the fact that the moxen are significantly more powerful in hyper-competitive fast (probably combo) decks than in the actual casual decks this format is about. The typical EDH deck isn't going to benefit much from an extra land drop that dies to mass removal (I mean, they're better-than-Signets good, but not $200 good), but additional free mana artifacts would be huge for all the people who only want to end the game before anyone can play Magic.



Bingo. That, and what onlainari had to say about first turn 4-cmc generals.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-13 10:23 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Filth wrote:
The moxen are banned because we don't want people to think they need them to play EDH. If someone finds the rules page, looks at the banned list, and doesn't see the moxen there, they're going to automatically assume it's Vintage 2.0. And someone with that mindset isn't going to waste their time reading more about the format, so pretty much the only way the playerbase would grow is if those potential new players talk to some of the current players and learn about the true nature of the format that way.

This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

Note I said it's a currently valid reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 3:58 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
onlainari wrote:
This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

What happens in October 2012?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 4:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
While I would dearly love to see them back, that is more from a sentimental memories, and my tendency to build non-optimized monocoloured decks. In truth, they do not belong in EDH. People are intimidated and get annoyed, even in casual play, by loosing to a deck containing such rare, over-priced cards.

We already have Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal, and you can be sure, RnD will be producing something similar in the near future. Do we really need more fast mana?

Of course, if WotC reprinted them again I would be very happy, but there are some collectors that would get slightly annoyed. See? I, too, can dream....


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 4:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

What happens in October 2012?

According to the Mayan calendar, the aliens currently living in a lighted undersea city will reveal themselves, taking over the format, and onlainari's head will explode.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 4:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tempesteye wrote:
spammeister wrote:
onlainari wrote:
This will only remain a valid reason for roughly 18 more months in my opinion.

What happens in October 2012?

According to the Mayan calendar, the aliens currently living in a lighted undersea city will reveal themselves, taking over the format, and onlainari's head will explode.


LOL!

I thought that was December 2012... Still, I'll have something to celebrate! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 8:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Having the proper dual lands to get with fetch lands is far more important to a deck's consistency then occasionally getting an extra land drop, unless you're playing a degenerate combo deck.. in which case, no one is going to come out of a game complaining about your mox. They're going to be complaining about your deck in general.

As for staples... yes, FoW is a staple in any deck that's at least 40-50% blue. If you like winning anyway... which is kinda implicit by you playing "staples" to begin with, since if you're not trying to optimize your chances of winning, why play boring, hated cards like wasteland or mind's eye either.

Anyway, final point: Yes, Commander has become popular enough to start to drive card prices... which makes it nonsensical to continue to base decisions on said card prices.

The attitude of "I can't afford card X, so no one should be able to play it!" is childish and has no place in modern magic. And just FYI, I'm one of those people who can't afford moxen... so I have NO personal stake in this.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:10 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
It's not a "money shouldn't be a factor in how good my deck is!" justice/morality-type issue.

It's more a "we want this format to grow, and if all the good players are pimping $2,000 decks, new players are discouraged from even giving the format a try" -type issue.

And yes, I agree that fetches+duals are important, but you can get by with just ravnica duals and other nonbasics without too much of a sacrifice. Fast mana on the other hand, is VERY powerful, don't kid yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:15 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
For the record,i honestly don't care if the mox stay ban or not,I won't be playing them either way, However i still say mox/black lotus are on the power level sol ring/mana cyrpt if not lower

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Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Whether right or not, there is a fair amount of stigma associated with the mox and with Black Lotus.

If people are told that you can play the mox in this format and that they could face someone playing them whenever they sit down to play against a stranger, that would certainly generate a negative reaction among a fairly large swath of casual players.

Unless their price drops dramatically, which is likely impossible while MtG is still being printed, I say leave them banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:30 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-13 2:53 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
I see a lot of people arguing to keep them banned due to price-related issues (less casual, discourages new players, etc), so why aren't $100+ cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Moat banned?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mooney wrote:
I see a lot of people arguing to keep them banned due to price-related issues (less casual, discourages new players, etc), so why aren't $100+ cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Moat banned?

Because it isn't just the price. It's the price, plus the apparent need to put them into every deck that people will have.

Workshop & Bazaar don't go into every deck, thus they aren't banned. Same goes with Jace.

This is one of the apparent reasons that Library of Alexandria is banned - the combination of price and the impression that people will need to put one in every deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it time to *Gasp* unban the moxen?
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-14 10:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-01 3:26 pm
Age: Drake
Ubiquity point is darned valid (well except jace...he pops up everywhere)

But don't forget, those cards are nowhere near as scarce as the P9, their high price is due to higher demand. The vintage community is small, and is the only group of players competing for ownership of moxen. If EDH players start collecting moxen, the prices will become MUCH higher than they are currently - my guess is probably more than triple.


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