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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 7:49 pm 
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Majus wrote:
Roger that.

I wanna apologize beforehand if this was previously asked/answered/discussed. What does General damage end specifically at 21 and not say 20 or 25, etc? I do hear that question being asked every once in a while too.

Blackjack?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 7:51 pm 
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Majus wrote:
What does General damage end specifically at 21 and not say 20 or 25, etc?


Image x3 = 21

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-10 9:36 pm 
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Majus wrote:
Why are players able to play more than one legendary creature in the context of electing one to be a general but playing other legendary creatures that detract from this?

Allow me to answer that question with another question; In what way does having other legendary creatures detract from your general? Is it not possible for one mighty and/or noteworthy figure to work for another? The other legends in your deck certainly aren't getting the benefits of being the general, so they are less special in that sense. In the military, a person has rank and grade. Grade is what we generally refer to as rank - you're a sergeant or a lieutenant or whatever. Rank is your position in the command chain. So in this sense, you can have many legends but only one general.

EDIT: To help Genomancer give a more in-depth explanation, in the early days of the format your general was always one of the elder dragon legends, like Nicol Bolas or Arcades Sabbath, hence the name Elder Dragon Highlander. All 5 are 7/7 and it was decided that 3 hits = you lose, hence, 21 general damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-10 9:48 pm 

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Age: Elder Dragon
3 hits being enough to take out someone with normal life, thus was general damage born, everyone relized that EDL's sucked for the most part and now we have Thrax, Omnath, Urial, etc.. instead.
yea

cause general damage, u know>


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-11 12:14 am 
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I intuited the 21 rule as an ordinary life total + 1. Your life total of 40 reflects your resilience to the attacks of normal creatures, but a creature powerful enough to be a general is on par with you in power level. As a result, your resistance to it is just barely more than what normal mages possess against normal creatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 1:13 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Allow me to answer that question with another question; In what way does having other legendary creatures detract from your general? Is it not possible for one mighty and/or noteworthy figure to work for another?


My reasoning is that because one has to designate a legendary creature as being this quintessential "leader," having more waters the role/position/intention down. If you are going to designate one specific legendary creature, playing more, especially in this context, convolutes this role.

"Oh, I'm not going to play legend X (as a general) because I can't play color X, therefore I'm going to play legend Y so that I can play legend X, A, B, C, etc."

"Screw that legend. I can't build a deck around it. I'll play this other legend as my general, and then put that other as one of the other 99."

There are many other statements I've heard, but these are the two that come immediately to mind.

To me, choosing ONE legendary creature should be a integral rule. Apart from this, it forces the player to make more critical card choices and be generally more constructive. Though it may seem cruel and unusual to some, sometimes restriction is the better path.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
In the military, a person has rank and grade. Grade is what we generally refer to as rank - you're a sergeant or a lieutenant or whatever. Rank is your position in the command chain. So in this sense, you can have many legends but only one general.


I served in the military. Rank and grade are nothing as you describe them in your analogy with the exception of the chain of command & rank.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
EDIT: To help Genomancer give a more in-depth explanation, in the early days of the format your general was always one of the elder dragon legends, like Nicol Bolas or Arcades Sabbath, hence the name Elder Dragon Highlander. All 5 are 7/7 and it was decided that 3 hits = you lose, hence, 21 general damage.


That makes perfect sense, and it did before with Genomancer's post. Perhaps another FAQ to go into the guide?


Last edited by Majus on 2010-Nov-17 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 1:47 am 
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Respectfully, you have the minority opinion on whether additional legends should be allowed. There are just way too many cool legends that are fun in EDH for most players to enjoy restricting themselves to one per deck. If you like having only one legend in your deck for the flavor bonus, please build your decks that way and brag about it. I'm not being sarcastic. Flavor-based deckbuilding earns you cool points!

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 2:12 am 
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Fugu wrote:
Respectfully, you have the minority opinion on whether additional legends should be allowed.


I fully understand that, but what does that have to do with anything?

Besides, aren't I the first one to bring this up and by default makes my view a minority?


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 8:06 am 
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Majus wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Respectfully, you have the minority opinion on whether additional legends should be allowed.


I fully understand that, but what does that have to do with anything?

A fair bit actually.

First, as a minority opinion on how the format should be, the format is unlikely to change simply to accommodate you (and the few others who agree with you.) Now, I know this isn't a place where you were really asking for a change, which leads to the second point:

This is a thread asking about FAQ's to be put into a document somewhere (eventually). As your view on how things should be (only one legendary creature) is a minority view, it makes it unlikely that this is a frequently asked question.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 9:39 am 
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Carthain wrote:

First, as a minority opinion on how the format should be, the format is unlikely to change simply to accommodate you (and the few others who agree with you.) Now, I know this isn't a place where you were really asking for a change...

This is a thread asking about FAQ's to be put into a document somewhere (eventually). As your view on how things should be (only one legendary creature) is a minority view, it makes it unlikely that this is a frequently asked question.


I wasn't asking to be accommodated for.

It is frequently asked. What is the question? "Why am I able to play more than one legendary creature (beyond the first [general], and including planewalkers)?" And believe it or not, I hear it asked all of the time.

I think that the topic on hand was misconstrued somewhere along the way. I presented the question a while ago and gave reasons surrounding why the question is asked. Although I've interjected my wording, the general idea is from other people (and I agree with the sentiment). I say I think I was miscontrued here because people are wrinkling their noses to the idea as if I was just coming on here to whine and bitch about some rule I personally didn't care for. That isn't the case, however I did present the information as a kind of two-shot as both the question (FAQ) and open up the possibility for a rule change.

I don't want to sound naïve. Isn't this the proper social forum (not literally this thread) to discuss rules? And, if so, why all of this obstinance?


Majus wrote:
There are many other statements I've heard, but these are the two that come immediately to mind.


I just remembered two more.

"Can I play a Kamigawa block "flip" card as my general? (i.e. Jushi Apprentice/Tomoya the Revealer)

This one isn't so much a question so much as it is a mentality:

"If I'm going to elect a legend as my general, it must be rare."

And that bring up the other question I hear once in a while. "Can my general be uncommon?"


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 1:22 pm 
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Majus wrote:

"Screw that legend. I can't build a deck around it. I'll play this other legend as my general, and then put that other as one of the other 99."

To me, choosing ONE legendary creature should be a integral rule. Apart from this, it forces the player to make more critical card choices and be generally more constructive. Though it may seem cruel and unusual to some, sometimes restriction is the better path.



Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, I just thought of a great example. I was glancing around elsewehere in these forums when I came across this thread. Some people mentioned Norin the Wary as one of the worst generals. Then the gears started to turn in my head: how can I abuse that card and make those people eat their words?

I conjured up some CiP combos (as a simple example Soul Warden, Cavern Harpy, and Vodalian Merchant). But then I remembered the color restriction rule and all of my combos crumbled.

The simple way to circumvent this: don't play Norin the Wary as my general. No, throw him in the general populace and play some quad or penta-colored legendary creature as my general even though the deck revolves around Norin.

Do you understand the problem now?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 2:27 pm 
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Quote:
Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, I just thought of a great example. I was glancing around elsewehere in these forums when I came across this thread. Some people mentioned Norin the Wary as one of the worst generals. Then the gears started to turn in my head: how can I abuse that card and make those people eat their words?

I conjured up some CiP combos (as a simple example Soul Warden, Cavern Harpy, and Vodalian Merchant). But then I remembered the color restriction rule and all of my combos crumbled.

The simple way to circumvent this: don't play Norin the Wary as my general. No, throw him in the general populace and play some quad or penta-colored legendary creature as my general even though the deck revolves around Norin.

Do you understand the problem now?
No.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 2:50 pm 
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Yeah.. basically, I don't get it. What's wrong with a general using all his resources to send creatures and spells into battle that work synergistically? You choose Numot or a 5 color general and build your defenses using a creature that's proven to be helpful time and time again - Norin the Wary.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 4:27 pm 
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Majus wrote:
The simple way to circumvent this: don't play Norin the Wary as my general. No, throw him in the general populace and play some quad or penta-colored legendary creature as my general even though the deck revolves around Norin.

Do you understand the problem now?

Many people do not see that as a problem.

Let's look at the potential issues here .... First, as you point out, that people can play more than one legendary creature in their deck. The other possible issue is the rule that (generalized) a deck can only contain cards of the colours of the general.

The second rule doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. Otherwise the huge debates over the topic of using creatures such as Bosh or Thelon as generals wouldn't be an issue. It's a rule that has been with the format since it's inception.

So the other issue is that it is possible to put legendary creatures who are not your general into your deck. And, while it is often true that restrictions breed creativity, I don't think this is the case here. If we did adopt the rule that the only legendary creature you can use is your general -- then how often would Norin be used? As you said, most of the things you want to use him with are not in red. So this restriction would likely cause Norin to not see any play (or, if he did, then less than he currently does.)

So would a rule such as this one actually add something to the format? or detract from it?


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 8:03 pm 
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Carthain wrote:
As you said, most of the things you want to use him with are not in red. So this restriction would likely cause Norin to not see any play (or, if he did, then less than he currently does.)

So would a rule such as this one actually add something to the format? or detract from it?



Well, there is big difference between what I want to use and what I'd need to use to still keep that combo going. Obviously in that scenario, I wouldn't be able to use the other cards. But, because I was restricted by only using Norin's mono-red, I would be forced into critical card choices or just scraping the idea all together.

For instance, in the case of critical card choice, I could still play mono-red CiP...Pandemonium, Avalanche Riders, Flametongue Kavu, etc, and then figure out a decent bounce engine (nothing beyond Cloudstone Curio, Erratic Portal, and Crystal Shard [which couldn't be played in mono-red] are the only few that are coming to mind at the moment).

I view this as adding to the format because it forces a player to be discerning in card choice and removes an element of laziness in deck design. Making critical card choices is a skill that can be developed and fostered because of this restriction.

Carthain, when I initially read your post I understood the stance you were taking. You meant to say that because I would want to play those other cards, but still base my deck around Norin, I would have to play a different (multi-colored) general. You then use my suggestion as a rubric to say that if such a restriction was imposed, it would detract from the format AND certain kinds of builds/decks/etc (i.e. a multi-colored CiP-Bounce deck with Norin as the main [non-general] creature).

Both views are valid. You take the (or at least from the way I interpreted your post) stance that such a restriction would detract from the format because it restricts a player to a smaller card pool and discourages certain deckbuilds. I take the stance that such a restriction would enhance the format by forcing players to be more critical of deck design and card choice from a smaller card pool (by in large, force players to be crafty). I also take the stance that playing one legendary creature (your general) keeps that role unpolluted.


And, Fugu, if you still don't understand, I'm just going to have to rely on what good 'ol Diogenes of Sinope said about trying to persuade a person...


Beyond the debate, the question still goes unanswered. Why is a player allowed to play more than one legendary creature?

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