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 Post subject: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 9:25 am 

Joined: 2010-Jul-26 9:21 am
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I was wondering if this has happend to anyone elses playgroups:
My playgroup has resorted to removing everything from the game. I dont mean a rule change i just mean by the end of normal play our exiled zone is larger then our graveyards. Our group ended up with so much graveyard recursion that this was just a natural evolution to stopping it.

So anyone elses playgroup shifted this way, or any other corky way?


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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 10:12 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Well, I have a heavily graveyard-based deck, and if my opponents draw a sufficient amount of graveyard hate, I'm probably going to end the game with more cards in exile than in my library. However, this is usually the result of maybe two or three Relic of Progenitus and/or Tormod's Crypt, combined with my own mill effects (I play the power trio of Altar of Dementia + Mesmeric Orb + Extractor Demon to make my own recursion more effective), so it's not really the amount of exile effects that causes this. Still, my playgroup is slowly but surely learning how important the ability to throw other people's stuff into the exile zone really is, and I would expect nothing but an increase in the quantity on exile effects.

It's good that your playgroup found the right way to fight decks that abuse the graveyard. It's better than letting recursion get completely out of hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 10:15 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
My group had a lot of yard recursion as well. I run Timetwister and Time Spiral so some of it gets shuffled in. Along with those, I run Scrabbling Claws and Phyrexian Furnace. They cantrip and remove the important cards out of graveyards (unless they are on the field for a long time). I run Relic of Progenitus as well. If I'm in need of more I replace Wheel of Fortune with Time Reversal and add Tormod's Crypt.

For the most part, our exiled zones get larger then our graveyards by the end of the game as well, but that is only a direct result of people running so much gy recurrsion.

EDIT: I run Arcslogger which is why my library ends up exiled.


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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 10:30 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
It doesn't always reach that extreme, but yes. Graveyard recursion is an excellent way to deal with the rigors of a long game, especially if you're in colors that don't draw cards well, and increasing the amount of yard hate extends naturally from this. Plus you have plenty of playable creatures in EDH that are indestructible, so you have to exile them in order to answer the threat (or force snackrifice. Whichever). Throw stuff like Eldrazi titans and graveyard-fueled combos (as opposed to mere reanimation strategies) into the mix, and exiling the crap out of yards becomes downright necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 10:39 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
quitlife wrote:
I was wondering if this has happend to anyone elses playgroups:
My playgroup has resorted to removing everything from the game. I dont mean a rule change i just mean by the end of normal play our exiled zone is larger then our graveyards. Our group ended up with so much graveyard recursion that this was just a natural evolution to stopping it.

So anyone elses playgroup shifted this way, or any other corky way?


What are you playing? If you're playing Rafiq/Pheldagriff or other UWG combo put together a Riftsweeper loop through the Reveillark combo a couple of times and they will stop.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 1:37 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
zimagic wrote:
put together a Riftsweeper loop through the Reveillark combo a couple of times and they will stop.


What is this combo you speak of and how do I abuse it? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 2:06 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Bruticus wrote:
zimagic wrote:
put together a Riftsweeper loop through the Reveillark combo a couple of times and they will stop.


What is this combo you speak of and how do I abuse it? :D


Can you seriously look at Reveillark and not think "combo"? That's impressive.

In GW alone you have at least Saffi Eriksdotter and Karmic Guide that will let you go infinite with Reveillark and a sac outlet (e.g. Spawning Pit, Altar of Dementia).

With Saffi (Lark and Saffi on the battlefield, Riftsweeper in the graveyard):
Target Lark with Saffi's ability. Sac Lark, return Saffi and Riftsweeper (and Saffi's ability returns Lark). Sac Riftsweeper. Repeat.

With Guide (Lark on the battlefield, Guide and Riftweeper in the graveyard):
Sac Lark, return Guide + Riftsweeper. Return Lark with Guide. Sac Guide and Riftsweeper. Repeat.

Of course, with the right sac outlet, the whole infinite Riftsweeper plan is irrelevant since you can just win with infinite Altar of Dementia or Goblin Bombardment activations. That, or use a non-lethal sac outlet (Spawning Pit) and replace the Riftsweeper with a game-winning ETB ability, like Ghitu Slinger or whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 4:57 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
Here's my suggestion - if exile effects have become so prevelant that relying on your graveyard is a liability, build decks that don't depend on the graveyard. Then laugh as each of your opponents have 10 graveyard hate spells that don't effect you.

In theory, the metagame pendulum would then swing back the other way, and people would take out some of their hate, making recursion a viable strategy again.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 7:14 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
the problem is that the graveyard is so easy to abuse that it's almost a requirement to run decent hate.

Take white as an example
why would you not put mistveil plains and emeria in any 3 or less color deck ?

Green
life from the loam + fetch lands / stripmine / cycle lands
gensis + survival of the fittest ?
never mind eternal witness + how many cipt tricks ?


Black
Volrath's stronghold is colorless but ....

Blue
Academy ruins is colorless but ...

Red
hey .. a color that you actually have to devote spots to recur crap

A friend of mine once told me extrapaite was crap in EDH, and I managed to F him over with it for months ( it's really not that good but .... )


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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 7:51 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Wheel of Sun and Moon on yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-26 8:56 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
obsidiandice wrote:
Here's my suggestion - if exile effects have become so prevelant that relying on your graveyard is a liability, build decks that don't depend on the graveyard. Then laugh as each of your opponents have 10 graveyard hate spells that don't effect you.

In theory, the metagame pendulum would then swing back the other way, and people would take out some of their hate, making recursion a viable strategy again.


I was experiencing a similar problem in my playgroup and approached it the same way: I drastically reduced the number of recursion effects. I'm actually not sure if it's trapped GY in their hands or if they just stopped running them. Either way limiting this particular strategy to just a few cards in each deck has allowed me to dodge that hate most of the time and only use the recursion occasionally when I need it instead of basing entire strategies on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-27 11:47 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
obsidiandice wrote:
Here's my suggestion - if exile effects have become so prevelant that relying on your graveyard is a liability, build decks that don't depend on the graveyard. Then laugh as each of your opponents have 10 graveyard hate spells that don't effect you.

In theory, the metagame pendulum would then swing back the other way, and people would take out some of their hate, making recursion a viable strategy again.


I would support this, but the problem is the context of the situation. In a multiplayer format, you have to stretch your resources further for each player that's in the game. That's why you don't see a lot of point removal in people's decks like Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade, or plain-Jane creatures like Tarmogoyf. You have to get the most bang for your buck out of the cards you play.

Gaining card advantage is critical in multiplayer so you don't quickly fall behind, and recursion is probably one of the easiest and most effective ways to do it. Additionally, a highlander format means that without recursion, players only get one usage out of their cards. "But I want to play Vindicate more than just once!" And so recursion is utilized to do just that.

It's so hard not to run at least some sort of recursion in a deck. Even red, the one color that has the worst interactivity with the graveyard, has Phoenixes, Hammer of Bogardan, Rekindled Flame, Recoup, Anarchist, and the underrated Surreal Memoir.

In short, it would be very hard to tell people *not* to run any recursion in their decks.

Finally, while the logic of not playing anything that interacts with the graveyard in order to blank opponent's graveyard hate doesn't exactly work. Many pieces of graveyard hate have other secondary applications instead of just liquefying the 'yard. Nezumi Graverobber flips into a devastating instant-speed, pain-free Reanimate. Bojuka Bog is a land, so it's integrated directly into your manabase and doesn't take up an actual deck slot. Relic, Claws, and Furnace all can be cantripped. Etc. etc. If worse comes to worse, an opponent can just aim their GY hate at someone other than you so it's not totally dead.

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 Post subject: Re: Exiled =(
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-27 2:29 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
@SurgingChaos: The other way to approach the problem is going for recursion that may not be the most optimal color or costwise but gives you the most options so even if you do limit yourself when you do draw it you will most likely have a target. An example of this is running Beacon of Unrest over Genesis in my decks with green and black. Sure Genesis gives you the long game advantage but in a meta with too much GY hate is he really worth the time investment of getting him in there? Instead Beacon is a recurring effect (sort of) that can be used on other people's GY's even when yours gets nuked.

I think Red's GY recursion is fine and should slip under the radar. The answer should be to limit the recursion to the most relaible effects that you you know you're going to get value out of. Red already is limited at they shouldn't be the focus of the game. Green and Black recursion strategies draw much more attention as they should.

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1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


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