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 Post subject: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-23 8:48 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If I own both golgari germination and Lifeline, and a wrath is played I get to choose which activates first thus creating tokens just in time to save all the the creatures right?

In another scenario instead of golgari germination I had persist creatures, they wouldn't come back in time to save the other creatures right?

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Marchesa (Modular)
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Last edited by Bruticus on 2010-Jun-23 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-23 10:26 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Bruticus wrote:
If I own both golgari germination and Lifeline, and a wrath is played I get to choose which activates first thus creating tokens just in time to save all the the creatures right?

In another scenario instead of golgari germination I had persist creatures, they wouldn't come back in time to save the other creatures right?

You get to order the triggers however you like in both situations. You can even stack the triggers so that your triggers for your opponents' Lifelined creatures resolve first and fail to see any creature on the battlefield, then your Golgari Germination/Woodfall Primus triggers resolve, then the Lifeline triggers for your other creatures resolve and you get them back at the end step.


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-23 11:26 pm 
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diabolical... This card just became all the better

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Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Retired:
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 4:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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I don't think you've got that right Intrepid. The trigger condition for Lifeline is "a creature is put into a graveyard and a creature is in play". If Wrath of God resolves, Lifeline will see the creatures hit the bin with no creatures in play (assuming no DSC & Co. of course) and therefore will not trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 1:52 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I don't think you've got that right Intrepid. The trigger condition for Lifeline is "a creature is put into a graveyard and a creature is in play".

Here's the Oracle text on Lifeline:
"Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if another creature is on the battlefield, return the first card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step."
Because it breaks it up into a trigger for just the creature to graveyard, then a condition check for the rest of the ability, it does work the way I described. If the card's Oracle text were closer to its written text, you are right, Lifeline would not trigger at all.

I'm not sure why it was decided to go with that functionally different text; maybe it had to do with the 6th Edition rules change. I don't know enough about pre-6th rules to know how Lifeline worked back then.


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 7:31 pm 
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intreped, I don't think it does work that way.

Comp Rules wrote:
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)


And with the oracle wording you gave, Lifeline is a triggered ability, with an intervening if clause in it. As such, Lifeline won't trigger at all, because the condition isn't true at the time it would trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 7:31 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
intreped wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I don't think you've got that right Intrepid. The trigger condition for Lifeline is "a creature is put into a graveyard and a creature is in play".

Here's the Oracle text on Lifeline:
"Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if another creature is on the battlefield, return the first card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step."
Because it breaks it up into a trigger for just the creature to graveyard, then a condition check for the rest of the ability, it does work the way I described. If the card's Oracle text were closer to its written text, you are right, Lifeline would not trigger at all.

I'm not sure why it was decided to go with that functionally different text; maybe it had to do with the 6th Edition rules change. I don't know enough about pre-6th rules to know how Lifeline worked back then.

No, it doesn't according to this;
gatherer rulings wrote:
If more than one creature is on the battlefield and all the creatures on the battlefield go to the graveyard at once, then none of them are returned at end of turn. This is because Lifeline's ability has an intervening-if clause, which means that there must be at least one creature on the battlefield at the time the ability resolves.

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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 8:46 pm 
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Carthain wrote:
intreped, I don't think it does work that way.
Comp Rules wrote:
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)

Oops. I knew that one a long time ago, but somehow got confused into thinking it was something else. Right, so Lifeline does nothing unless a creature actually survives the Wrath effect. Sorry, Bruticus.
Sid the Chicken wrote:
No, it doesn't according to this;
gatherer rulings wrote:
If more than one creature is on the battlefield and all the creatures on the battlefield go to the graveyard at once, then none of them are returned at end of turn. This is because Lifeline's ability has an intervening-if clause, which means that there must be at least one creature on the battlefield at the time the ability resolves.

This particular ruling doesn't actually relate to this discussion much, since there would be a creature on the battlefield at the time the ability resolves. I'm still wrong, though, and you were right.

So if I had a Stuffy Doll enchanted by a Sigil of the Nayan Gods and a Karmic Guide, and I controlled a Golgari Germination and a Lifeline, and someone cast Infest, and no other creatures had more than 2 toughness, would Lifeline's trigger go all the way to resolution? Could I stack triggers in the way I described to Bruticus? I believe I could get back the Karmic Guide but not the Stuffy Doll, but I want some verification on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 10:00 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks for the clear up, it's still a great card. I remember reading the Gatherer's ruling about Wraths, but I wasn't sure if Golgari Germination could get a creature on the field fast enough to activate Lifeline and bring them back.

_________________
Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Retired:
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-24 11:46 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
intreped wrote:
So if I had a Stuffy Doll enchanted by a Sigil of the Nayan Gods and a Karmic Guide, and I controlled a Golgari Germination and a Lifeline, and someone cast Infest, and no other creatures had more than 2 toughness, would Lifeline's trigger go all the way to resolution? Could I stack triggers in the way I described to Bruticus? I believe I could get back the Karmic Guide but not the Stuffy Doll, but I want some verification on this one.

I'm guessing no, but I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I'm not totally sure. State-based effects will certainly kill the Doll before the trigger is stacked, but there is no doubt that a creature was still in play when Karmic Guide hit the graveyard. Given how it's worded in the CompRules though (specifically "Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets") I'm betting that you couldn't stack it because the condition wouldn't be met when you try to put it on there.


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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-25 5:31 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Comp rules wrote:
115.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn’t yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 115.5.

115.5 Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities”). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.

603.4 A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)

The answer to your corner case is... maybe. The infest would kill the Karmic Guide but not Stuffy Doll (yet). When it did, the trigger condition for lifeline would be true, so it would trigger, but not hit the stack yet. Then Stuffy Doll would die because it got smaller and that would not trigger lifeline. Then Lifeline's ability would go on the stack. Then spells and abilities can be played. If you can get another creature onto the field before Lifeline's ability resolves, you get back the guide. Otherwise the if clause is false on resolution and the ability does nothing.

Also, the outcome on the gatherer ruling is true, but the explanation is wrong. Lifeline doesn't save your creatures from wrath because it never triggers, not because the condition is false on resolution. I should have read it more closely when I copied it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-05 10:59 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Oct-18 8:52 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oz
intreped wrote:
So if I had a Stuffy Doll enchanted by a Sigil of the Nayan Gods and a Karmic Guide, and I controlled a Golgari Germination and a Lifeline, and someone cast Infest, and no other creatures had more than 2 toughness, would Lifeline's trigger go all the way to resolution? Could I stack triggers in the way I described to Bruticus? I believe I could get back the Karmic Guide but not the Stuffy Doll, but I want some verification on this one.

This is how I see it playing out:
1. Infest resolves
2. Karmic Guide dies¹ (along with any opponents' creatures) (SBE)
3. Lifeline triggers, Golgari Germination triggers
4. Stuffy Doll dies (SBE)
5. Golgari Germination triggers, Lifeline does not trigger as there are no creatures in play
6. No more SBE so triggers go on the stack (I pre-ordered them)
6a. (then for any opponents' creatures you could stack their Lifeline triggers here)
Provided there's no other response:
6b. (any opponents' creatures' Lifeline triggers fizzle as there are no creatures in play)
7. Golgari Germination resolves (twice)
8. Lifeline sees a Saproling in play and resolves for Karmic Guide
9. Karmic Guide triggers targeting Stuffy Doll (or anything you'd rather have) and resolves
10. Stuffy Doll comes into play
Tada, you have both Karmic Guide and Stuffy Doll back. :)

¹ useless prot black is useless

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 Post subject: Re: Lifeline+persist/Golgari Germination
AgePosted: 2010-Jul-06 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Daf wrote:
This is how I see it playing out:

Ah, I missed that he included the Golgari Germination in his question. This sequence is correct.

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