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 Post subject: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 9:51 am 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's an eight-mana spell. It requires a lot of setup to even do anything. And any instant-speed removal can counter it. Is it seriously a problem? Eight-mana spells are supposed to win you the game anyway, especially when you're paying all five colors.

I understand that it has the potential to end the game in an anticlimactic and boring way, but any infinite combo can do that. It's hardly a unique effect. Staff of Domination and Time Stretch aren't banned, and they're just as easy to set up, just as unfun, and don't get hosed by Back to Basics or Sundering Titan. And only five-color decks can use it, so it's not as if it's going to warp the format. Nobody says, "Hey, I'd better play five colors because Coalition Victory is such a powerful card."

So yeah. I'm kinda confused on this one. Can anyone offer an explanation? Hopefully someone from the Rules Committee who had a hand in banning it?


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 10:31 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
While I'm not on the RC, I'll take the time to play devil's advocate. Here are the problems presented with Coalition Victory:

The "set-up" you talk about doing is very minimal.
Let's look at the prerequisites involved with winning with CV:
- A creature of each color (your 5C general will suffice!)
- A land of each basic land type (dual lands abusing Domain FTW)

So we can basically rewrite CV to saying "If your general is on the battlefield, you win the game." Compare CV to other cards that instantly win the game like Mortal Combat, Test of Endurance, and Epic Struggle, and you can see that those cards clearly take effort to set up aside from just playing your general and playing dual lands that you were normally going to drop anyway. And of course, you will almost always have access to your general.

Coalition Victory is very hard to feasibly stop.
With other instant win cards, you are given at least until the player's next upkeep to stop them before they win the game. For a large table, that's usually more than enough time. With Coalition Victory, there is a very small time frame to stop the 5c player from instantly winning the game. Your only ways of stopping CV are to bounce/kill the general (requires instant speed spells), having an instant speed LD effect (very rare except for a Strip Mine or Wasteland not used up yet) or flat out countering CV, which always isn't the most viable option since it requires 1. a blue player at the table and 2. they're not tapped out

Time Stretch can be Wild Ricocheted, Forked, and redirected. CV can't be redirected at all, and it does not good for you to copy the spell unless you happen to be a 5c deck with your general and a few dual lands out as well. This further compounds the problem of feasibly answering CV.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I can concede all of that, but it still only proves that Coalition Victory is powerful--not format-warping or otherwise banworthy, again particularly in comparison to other powerful cards at similar mana costs (such as Time Stretch or Magister Sphinx) or with similar "I just randomly win the game" functions (such as Staff of Domination or Mind Over Matter) that are just as difficult to answer and no more difficult to set up.

I mean, you can't just ban every powerful sorcery that wins the game under specific conditions, right? EDH is supposed to be about big, splashy effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 11:03 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
I'll express an opinion, and this is a *me* opinion, not a RC opinion.

I dislike most of the 'you win the game' cards (from Coalition Victory to Felidar Sovereign and everything in between), because of their tremendous letdown factor. When they resolve, it's like hitting a wall going full speed. Fun, fun, fun, *splat*.

At least the triggered ones (Test of Endurance, Epic Struggle) have the opportunity to let players do stuff. Coalition Victory is really easy to set up. I agree that 'big and splashy' is part of the EDH experience. Coalition Victory is neither. I prefer seeing players *do* stuff to win, not just drop cards.

Don't worry, none of the other 'you win the game' cards are anywhere near consideration for banning.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 12:47 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
I have to admit part of me found it nice to see someone else saying that 8 mana spells winning you the game isn't a bad thing, while at the same time there is a thread active right now about how a 15 mana creature (Emrakul) is too broken to stay in the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 2:48 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-10 2:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Personally, if a player is going to win the game (or make it almost elementary through mass LD or the likes), I'd prefer the game to just be over than have to watch them take infinite turns or draw their deck. If CV is running into a wall, those types of cards are running into a wall, bouncing off, saying "Ow, that hurt!" and then running into the wall again. Over and over and over.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-13 7:22 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
troacctid wrote:
Eight-mana spells are supposed to win you the game anyway

No, no, thousand times no. Very common misconception. Games on EDH don't get to be won around here that quickly, generally everyone has at least 15 land.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 7:09 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
troacctid wrote:
Eight-mana spells are supposed to win you the game anyway

No, no, thousand times no. Very common misconception. Games on EDH don't get to be won around here that quickly, generally everyone has at least 15 land.


But in a game with many players, someone probably has the ability to disrupt this spell before it resolves. Either through a counter spell, or by killing the 5C general, or by bouncing or destroying one of the five required lands (your opponent is not likely to have two or more copies of each land type). You disrupt one of the conditions, the spell fails, and then has to be recurred.

I have to agree that this card really doesn't need to be banned. Since there is no effort to ban any of the other "you win the game" and since with 8 mana, you can easily establish any number of infinite combos (probably more easily than with a sorcery, five basic land types, and your general), I would say it could be unbanned.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 3:05 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
Coalition Victory should absolutely not be unbanned. It just ends games, or even worse forces you to play in an entirely unfun way to avoid losing to it. "I'd really like to play my general, but I need to leave Mortify mana up in case Mister Five-Colors plays Coalition Victory..."

I would rather play against a deck running Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, all five Moxen, Balance, Karakas, Library of Alexandria, Upheaval, Panoptic Mirror, and Gifts Ungiven than one running Coalition Victory.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 4:08 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
You have to have a 5 color deck, a super-disrupt-able mana base, a difficult to cast general keep it in play and cast an 8 mana, 5 colored, counter-spellable card to use it. I, personally, think it is safe to unban. If it were, I can assure you that you'd want to play black for Tsabo's Decree and Engineered Plague for all the sliver decks you'll start seeing. Or white for Humility.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 4:18 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
obsidiandice wrote:
Coalition Victory should absolutely not be unbanned. It just ends games, or even worse forces you to play in an entirely unfun way to avoid losing to it. "I'd really like to play my general, but I need to leave Mortify mana up in case Mister Five-Colors plays Coalition Victory..."

I would rather play against a deck running Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, all five Moxen, Balance, Karakas, Library of Alexandria, Upheaval, Panoptic Mirror, and Gifts Ungiven than one running Coalition Victory.


I would never go that far. Moxen, Karakas, Library, maybe, but it's clear you haven't played with Black Lotus or Balance enough. Both are so abusive it makes my stomach turn. I'm even willing to concede Ancestral Recall is less broken than in other formats due to the large inconsistency of decks and the basic one-land-per-turn mana ramp for most decks, but the third should still remain banned (mostly for $$ cost), but the first two? Holy crap, you're out of your mind.

Coalition Victory is not remotely in the same ball park as lotus or balance. At all.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 6:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
obsidiandice wrote:
Coalition Victory should absolutely not be unbanned. It just ends games, or even worse forces you to play in an entirely unfun way to avoid losing to it. "I'd really like to play my general, but I need to leave Mortify mana up in case Mister Five-Colors plays Coalition Victory..."

I would rather play against a deck running Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, all five Moxen, Balance, Karakas, Library of Alexandria, Upheaval, Panoptic Mirror, and Gifts Ungiven than one running Coalition Victory.

Lol. Well we haven't banned gifts ungiven or panoptic mirror here (there are decks running them), but you've gone overboard: karakas is a bitch, and upheaval is horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-14 8:24 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
People seem to be misinterpreting my previous statement somewhat. I am not saying that any of the cards I listed should be unbanned, or even that they are necessarily weaker than Coalition Victory. Almost all of them are more powerful cards in the abstract.

What I was saying is that for me, the fun of the format would be hurt more by Coalition Victory than any of those cards. Black Lotus, Time Walk, and Ancestral Recall are all worlds more powerful, but you don't have to sit there playing around them constantly or immediately lose.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
obsidiandice wrote:
the fun of the format would be hurt more by Coalition Victory than any of those cards. Black Lotus, Time Walk, and Ancestral Recall are all worlds more powerful, but you don't have to sit there playing around them constantly or immediately lose.


But there are a large number of cards that also fall into that category that aren't banned, including the aforementioned Staff of Domination and Mind Over Matter and many, many others and a lot of them are simpler to pull off. In a game of magic, you always have to be worried about cards coming out of no where and giving a player the win, this card just fits into that category.

For me, the big hint on whether a card should remain banned is imagining what would happen if the card was printed brand new today, would it be banned? For some cards, the answer is yes, a Karakas-like effect would always end up banned in this format, but for this card, I really just don't see it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Coalition Victory banned?
AgePosted: 2010-Jun-15 9:50 am 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Are you supposed to play around Coalition Victory every time someone plays a five-color general? Staff of Domination combos with Rofellos, and Mind Over Matter combos with Niv-Mizzet and Azami, Lady of Scrolls (and Arcanis I guess), but when someone plays one of those guys as a general you know to look out for the combos. I don't particularly want to live in fear every time a Sliver Queen/Reaper King/Cromat deck drops a dual land or plays Kodama's Reach.

What are the other many, many cards that fit in this category? I can only think of Curiosity and Obsidian Eye.


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