Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 10:48 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 8:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Sep-11 8:09 am
Age: Wyvern
Warble, I'm normally on your side, but here I think you're way off. Library is incredibly good, and really does belong in 95% of EDH decks, were it not banned. It's much much better than any mox, and if combos like Auriok Salvagers didn't exist, I'd say it was stronger than Lotus, too.

A card doesn't have to be Super-Combo-Enabling to be ban-worthy, it just has to keep people from being turned off to the format. Super-high-dollar must-haves are one category of cards that do that, along with cheap locks (Braids as general) and cheesy wins (Biorhythm, Coalition Victory).

It doesn't help that, unlike Rhystic Study or Mind's Eye, to answer LoA you have to be running land destruction. The cure is worse than the disease! I definitely would not want to encourage an EDH where Armageddons become a common sight.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-19 8:28 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Library is $120 and is banned. But is useful is every EDH deck there is, being completely colorless, this card could go in every deck made, it would be more useful in some than others, and with the ability to be colorless even if you're under 7 cards it's never a bad draw.

Mishra's Workshop is $180 and is legal. and is only really useful in 1 deck ( Karn ) , with a perhaps for sharum, depending on how many artifacts the deck is actually running

Bazaar of Baghdad is $170 and is legal. And is only really useful if someone is running a dredge engine ( I've got one ) and without the ability to produce mana is a can be a dead draw.

Timetwister is $180 and is legal. As are dimishing returns, windfall, timespiral, memory jar, wheel of fortune. Not saying this isn't the best effect, but it isn't seen as "required" , other than making folks go look up weither it's banned or not if they haven't seen one before :P ( happened to me when I took a deck up to visit a friend and we played with an EDH group I don't normally play with )

Grim Tutor is $120 and is legal. A great card in this higher life format, but again how many other tutor effects are there ? demonic , daibolic , vampiric, demonic colusion. etc etc.

I agree that LoA isn't the most powerful card out there but ... it's cheap effective, and can fit in every deck built. If only for turn 1 , I drop an LoA, pass the turn, tap goto 8 cards in hand.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-27 8:57 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-04 1:02 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, FL
I also feel that Library should be reconsidered for unbanning.

_________________
RIP Academy & EDH - June '10


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-27 9:04 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
urielxvi wrote:
I also feel that Library should be reconsidered for unbanning.

What a convincing argument.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-27 3:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Oct-18 8:52 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oz
paperwarrior wrote:
urielxvi wrote:
I also feel that Library should be reconsidered for unbanning.

What a convincing argument.

Library's $240 in our area this week... yeah, nah.

_________________
Kalterwolf wrote:
Shatter and Bloodshot Trainee may be confirmed via Orb of Insight, but dont quote me on it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 10:57 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
I gotta weigh in on this one because i actually OWN a library, and have playtested it in EDH a few times.

My former playgroup didnt like that I had A Library in my deck because of it's implied power. Formerly refered to as #10 in the power 9, library has a reputation. The card seems to me not to be broken in the format, but instead of arguing for its unbanning or staying banned I am going to write up a facts sheet to help the arguement along

Library of Alexandria:
- Is Expensive
- Is playable in ANY deck
- Usually nets a player around 3-4 cards MAX unless the deck is built to abuse it.
- is GOOD in any deck
- Draws alot of hate because you are playing with "power"
- Causes opponents to have less fun because they think you are playing a "Broken" card.
- Isnt good in any other format that it is legal in anymore

So it seems to me that if EDH was the format you could actually play your Library in, if you had one it would be a good thing to those players, but players who do not own one have a negative view of playing with such expensive and notorious cards.

I think library deserves some serious playtesting to see if it is unbannable.

If i currently had a playgroup i would test it some more, but i just had my 3rd child and she is only 3 weeks old so i dont get much gaming in at all

Peace out,
Shoe


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 11:26 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Shoe3, just out of curiosity, did you pair Library with Life from the Loam? I can't seem to build an EDH deck without Loam and the interaction with Library seems favorable.

_________________
"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 11:38 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
i did play it with loam actually. I was playing Savara I think, back before G/B had much card draw (Ravnica was new i think). it was really good, and alot of fun, but it was never so broken that it pissed anyone off how I played it. They were mostly just angry because i had "power" in my deck


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 12:02 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe3 wrote:
i did play it with loam actually. I was playing Savara I think, back before G/B had much card draw (Ravnica was new i think). it was really good, and alot of fun, but it was never so broken that it pissed anyone off how I played it. They were mostly just angry because i had "power" in my deck

Let me ask you, were you trying to break it? I mean, not just have fun with it but really trying to abuse it in the most unfair way possible?
I only ask because I think that how you really have to think about it.

_________________
Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 12:36 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Thanks for the reply Shoe. I ask because it seems you'd always have Library active once you find it and Loam.. Of course, that's YA2CC (yet another two card combo) and not even one that finishes the game. Just one that provides all kinds of card advantage.

I don't agree with looking at this as a power-level problem. As I see it..

Black Lotus > Ancestral Recall > Sol Ring > Library of Alexandria > Mox Sapphire (and the rest)

..for reasons I've already gone into (depending on when you ask me I might swap the order of Library and Sol Ring).

I'm OK with the belief that you 'need' a Sol Ring in every deck, even though I know it isn't actually true. Still, it's a fairly widespread belief in my experience. 'Needing' any of the others isn't good for the format.

_________________
"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 12:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
tempesteye wrote:
Shoe3 wrote:
i did play it with loam actually. I was playing Savara I think, back before G/B had much card draw (Ravnica was new i think). it was really good, and alot of fun, but it was never so broken that it pissed anyone off how I played it. They were mostly just angry because i had "power" in my deck

Let me ask you, were you trying to break it? I mean, not just have fun with it but really trying to abuse it in the most unfair way possible?
I only ask because I think that how you really have to think about it.


well, i do tend to build using the DBAD rule so i wasnt trying to break it as hard as i could, but i was definately not playing poorly. on the other hand, the cycling lands and Loam combo hadnt been discovered yet so that wasnt really something i had been using either, although i did use it wit the fetch lands from mirage/onslaught.

i used it mostly as a Card advantage engine, and it didnt really seem broken. certantly good, but not broken...again though I wasnt really TRYING to be a dick, its just not how i roll


P.S.: keeping a seven card hand is a bit of a challenge until the combo has been going on for a couple of turns, and graveyard hate is pretty common where i play so its decently disruptable as well
-Shoe


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 1:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
As long as people are advocating unbanning Library because it won't break games, let's go ahead and unban the 5 original moxen as well. I mean, it's not like a Mox Pearl is going to make you absolutely unbeatable, right?

Library is a really good card that, if unbanned, would want to be as ubiquitous as Sol Ring but that costs about 20 times as much. It may not break games, it would just create an enormous financial barrier to entry into the format.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-28 11:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think that people forget how young EDH really is, and that a healthy perception of the format to new and prospective players is essential to its growth. One of the appealing things about EDH is that it's still not perceived as a cutthroat competitive format where you need to buy many expensive cards just to play. The banning of power and cards like Library is a comfort because they're definitely staple-worthy but out of the price range of most players.

This is speaking from my experience as a very casual EDH player. Getting into the format included picking a general, pulling out all the cool and flashy spells in the colors that I owned and then playing around to see what would work. Over time as I played more, I generally would buy a few singles and make a few substitutions to my deck between sessions. I believe that the majority of players on a budget follow a similar trend instead of deciding on a deck list and simply filling up their sleeves.

People are usually willing to build their decks up over time, spending maybe $20-$50 at a time to get fun or utility cards when they have some extra cash...but when the gradual building up of an EDH deck takes chunks too great out of one's wallet, it becomes much less fun to play and build.

Personally, I think that anything that could be considered a staple in EDH that regularly goes for more than $100 (if the line would be drawn anywhere) should be banned. Grim Tutor, Workshop, and Bazaar, simply by being legal are harmful to the format, although I see the Tutor as the worst offender. At least Bazaar does something very interesting but niche, which feels very worth keeping unbanned. Tutor is simply a very efficient card that can't be had by most budget players due to low supply.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-29 5:04 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'd agree with you about Grim Tutor if you couldn't already play Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, both of which are much, much cheaper. Considering the slower nature of the format, Diabolic Tutor also really isn't that much worse than Grim Tutor, either.

If there are people out there with the money to spend on a Grim Tutor, I'd say let them play it.

_________________
Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Worldgorger and Library ban questioning
AgePosted: 2009-Oct-29 11:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Grim Tutor is no more a staple of the format than Strategic Planning is. Both have high secondary market values. Players aren't going out of their way to pick these cards up because there are roughly equivalent cards to be had for much less.

If Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor didn't exist then I wouldn't want Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor in the format.

We don't have that problem.

_________________
"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: