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 Post subject: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-05 3:20 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
I think these cards are all good candidates for unbanning, judging by the cards and combos that are legal for play in EDH. I believe that since stronger combos than the ones enabled by these cards remain legal in EDH, either these cards should be unbanned, or certain currently-legal combo pieces should be banned.

[card]Lion's Eye Diamond[/card]:

There are 2 good uses for this card in EDH.

One, it can be used as a Black Lotus to play your general, if you don't care about your hand. This isn't broken--all the decks with generals who really want to come out fast need their hand.

Two, and the reason LED was banned I believe, is that it fuels an infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers. However, it does not provide a win-condition--it is still a 3 card combo. There are other cheap, 2 card infinite mana combos legal in EDH: Rofellos (or any other creature that taps for 4+ mana) + Staff of Domination/Umbral Mantle/Sword of the Paruns and Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact/Rings of Brighthearth. The Rofellos combos in particular are much nastier, as running Rofellos as general means only having to draw into 1 other card. Furthermore, Staff of Domination provides not just infinite mana, but a win-condition, as you also gain infinite life and draw your deck. With these, arguably superior, combos still legal, is LED + Auriok Salvagers different enough to warrant banning? It still folds to creature removal or to graveyard hate.

(If LED + Auriok Salvagers is still deemed bannably good, might I suggest banning the Salvagers instead of LED? I've never seen Auriok Salvagers run in an EDH deck, whereas I have a few decks I might like to try LED in, for non-broken uses. I think LED would be a more useful/fun card.)

Worldgorger Dragon:

Same reasoning as above, really. This combo only provides infinite mana, not an instant kill alone. Furthermore, it requires discarding the Dragon somehow, or an Entomb effect, to set it up, and it's vulnerable to creature removal and graveyard hate. I don't believe that this combo is any stronger than those already legal. (Although, to be honest, since I started writing this I thought of a potentially stronger reason to keep the Dragon banned--Buried Alive for Worldgorger Dragon + Maga or Kumano or something could result in a true 2 card kill, which wouldn't be much fun.)

Metalworker:

Honestly, this should never have been banned in the first place. It was never even remotely broken in any deck that I'm aware of. The only decks it even fits in are Karn, Sharuum, and Arcum Dagsson. I was playing all of these decks when Metalworker was legal, and it wasn't a particularly broken card in any of them. It was only even consistently very good in Karn, and Karn can use the help. (In terms of fueling broken starts, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are much better cards, though I know I'm beating a dead horse here...).

Metalworker is generally useless late-game. Early, it's often quite good, but very vulnerable to removal (of course) and with diminishing effect. It might let you dump a few artifacts on the board more easily, but then it's used up--it's usefulness decreases rapidly as artifacts leave your hand.

I don't think much of Metalworker as a combo-piece with Staff of Domination--you still need 3 artifacts in your hand to go off, and I know from experience that this is a lot harder than it seems to achieve. Very often, even when I managed to find both cards, I'd be sitting there trying to draw more artifacts before something got destroyed...and I almost always lost that race. Despite playing Metalworker and Staff of Domination in two decks, and playing probably over 120 games total with those decks (Sharuum was my favorite deck during this period), I think I won with this combo perhaps twice. It just doesn't work out most of the time.

Finally, it's been said before, but Metalworker is just a worse card than Rofellos, especially as Rofellos can be played as a general and is thus insanely consistent. I never bought the excuses for banning Metalworker while unbanning Rofellos, and I don't think many others did either (I can only recall exactly one person thinking that it was a good decision, and I don't think his reasoning was very good).

It feels strange trying to make a good argument for unbanning Metalworker--I can think of literally no good reasons why it should be banned, so it's quite difficult to prepare counter-arguments.

Well, those are my suggestions. I'm interested in knowing how many people agree that these cards could be unbanned, how many people think the other infinite mana combos should be banned instead, and how many people think I'm just wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-05 11:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Sep-05 11:10 am
Age: Hatchling
I agree with Metalworker. If Metalworker's ban is due to:

1) Staff of Domination:
Then one needs to ban Staff + Grim Monolith + Power Artifact as well

i.e. if the ban is due to an interaction with a single card, then one should ban many other such 2 cards interactions that win the game e.g. Arcanis + Mind over Matter


2) Ability to generate huge amounts of mana:
Then one needs to ban Gaea's Cradle, Tolarian Academy, Mana Reflection, Earthcraft, Grim Monolith, Power Artifact, ROFELLOS, etc

The whole point is any of the cards above can be easily abused and net WAY more mana than Metalworker (Cradle/Academy + Untap), Rofellos (nothing to be said here).

I'm just surprised that Metalworker is banned because of one of the 2 reasons above. For my arguments, I have mentioned why Metalworker shouldn't be banned, because if it's one of the 2 reasons above, then many cards ought to be banned for the same reasoning. With regards to 2) (mana acceleration), Metalworker really accelerates in a Karn deck, moederately in Sharuum/Dagsson decks. Worst thing is that like Sol Ring, he's only really good if you ever drew into him, and unlike Rofellos, he is not going to consistently dominate games since you have no way to obtain him except to tutor via Tezz or Fabricate etc (Dagsson cannot tutor him out). And if I were trying to tutor for something, I'd rather tutor up something else other than him.

Metalworker is scary if he's in play and adds 10 mana (if you have 5 artifacts in your hand) but so is Gaea's Cradle (if you have 5-10 creatures in play). But notice that these are VERY conditional depending on your hand, whether it has artifacts or for Cradle (whether you have creatures in play). Since it's conditional, it doesn't guarantee that you reap the max benefits from it. Also, the Staff-worker combo is another combo that requires to be assembled, and doesn't come online much unless you put in effort, in the face of multiplayer hate.

Rofellos on the other hand just questions the banning of Metalworker. Let's refer to points 1), 2)

1) Rofellos can combo off with Staff of Domination and Umbra Mantle.

2) Rofellos adds less/more mana than metalworker, depending on the game turns. To be honest, the fact that you're playing him turn 2 every game and adding GGG on turn 3 is much better than playing Metalworker on turn 3, and adding 4-8 mana on turn 4. Rofellos is a reliable manasource since he's always going to come down on turn 2, and always going to be replayed even if killed. Metalworker comes down later, and is situational to the cards in your hand, and if killed, he cannot be played as easily as Rofellos can.

so in light with points 1), 2), I feel that every argument warrants an unbanning of Metalworker. If the fear is that Dagsson, Karn, Sharuum becomes much overpowered with his inclusion, then I suggest that we ban Rule of Law, Steel of the God Head since Zur is so overpowered with those cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-05 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
I completely agree with Metalworker. He needs to be unbanned immediately.

To be honest, it is a complete joke to see Metalworker banned, yet Rofellos is free to run amok.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-06 2:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Have to agree that the current state of "Metalworker banned and Rofellos not banned" can't be justified by any means that I know of. Either Rofellos needs to go or Metalworker should be allowed; my guess is Rofellos should go (the only ways most decks in our group can beat it are to land something like Goblin Sharpshooter T2).

Worldgorger needs to stay banned. "T1 Entomb, T2 Animate Dead, win" is not fun, and there are plenty of additional cards that will finish the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-06 3:22 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
LED: I'm on the fence. On one hand, if it's LED or Salvagers that has to go, get rid of Salvagers. It's not played, and isn't interesting. With the mana pools emptying having changed, LED seems less good. I'm sure a dedicated combo deck could still abuse it, but not as easily as without Salvagers. I don't care if it stays banned, but I might use it if it isn't banned.


Worldgorger Dragon: Does very stupid things at very low cost while using the color with the best tutors available. This card just does dumb things, and isn't really capable of much else. Needs to stay out.


Metalworker: I see a large Metalworker V. Rofellos argument here.

Metalworker: Goes in any deck. Very good in many of the decks running WUB, which is a very suitable color combination for EDH.
Rofellos: Goes in decks with G. If you use him as a general, you're mono-G, meaning you don't have access to 1) Lots of efficient, non-creature-based card draw, 2) Good, unconditional tutors, and 3) Varying powerful combo win cons.

Rofellos isn't that absurd. With Fastbond, he might have been, but now he's not. I'm not saying he can't win, but in comparisson to Metalworker he's just not that good.

And don't give me the "OMG, He makes infinite mana" argument, because Metalworker does as well, if not more easily. Metalworker + Voltaic Construct is just as easy to assemble, let alone that Metalworker+Umbral Mantel works just as well. Metalworker can stay banned as far as I'm concerned. It being gone makes Sharuum more fun to play against.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-06 7:34 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-22 8:04 am
Age: Drake
For Worldgorger Dragon, fair enough. I think you're probably right.

For Metalworker, you're vastly overrating him. He does not, in fact, go in any deck. Just because he can played in any deck doesn't mean he's good there--there are actually only a handful of decks in which Metalworker is anything other than a bad card.

You're saying that Rofellos isn't absurd in comparison to Metalworker, but you don't say why. Rofellos comes out faster, is guaranteed to be playable immediately (while you have to actually draw Metalworker, and so can't count on him), and makes colored mana. Rofellos also only gets better in subsequent turns, whereas Metalworker is usually good for only one or two turns, and then he's done.

Speaking from experience, Rofellos is much easier to combo off with than Metalworker, and has more good combos available to him. Stuff like Umbral Mantle can be run in a Rofellos deck because you're guaranteed to have Rofellos--but it's simply not worth running in a deck with Metalworker, because the chance of drawing both cards, and having enough artifacts in hand to make it work, is very low. Umbral Mantle is useless by itself as well. There are already cheaper, more consistent, more redundant, and more individually useful infinite combos available for those who want to use them. Metalworker's status as a combo-piece is almost a non-issue.

Rofellos is vastly more consistent as a combo-piece, as he makes any of the cards he interacts with into a "one-card combo." With Metalworker, you have to find two specific cards instead of one, AND you have to meet the condition of having enough artifacts in hand. It does't happen much, and it's weaker than other legal combos.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-06 10:26 pm 

Joined: 2009-Sep-06 9:26 pm
Age: Wyvern
Worldgorger Dragon would be fine if the second ability read "When Worldgorger Dragon leaves the battlefield, exile it. If you do, return the other exiled cards to the battlefield under their owners' control." (Note the "If you do" clause is consistent with how modern cards are written.) As it is, the card breaks the game too easily because its worded so badly.

As for [card]Lion's Eye Diamond[/card] [Edit: Dudes... fix your script to properly URL encode like "http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/search/default.aspx?name=+[%22Lion%27s%20Eye%20Diamond%22]" and this problem goes away]... eh... I think being able to play your general like this goes against the spirit of the card. Then again, I'm not happy when people do Apocalypse general games, but at least that affects everyone equally and the player still loses his hand.

I'll agree that it seems pretty unfair that Metalworker is banned while Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is allowed -- as a general no less. That makes Umbral Mantle a one-card unlimited mana combo, and Power Artifact combined with Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith (note the Oracle text) is easier and doesn't rely on a creature. In Karn, Voltaic Construct works as well with Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, or Mana Vault. Unlimited mana is simply not difficult to get. It's not even the best combo to get unlimited mana. What exactly makes Metalworker more worthy of banning? There's nothing that can be done with Metalworker that Rofellos can't do better. It requires no fewer cards for the combo to go off than any other unlimited mana combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-07 9:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Have to agree on Metalworker. It seems overwhelmingly obvious compared to Rofellos. (Although I would ban Rofellos.)

Can't say on the others, but boy, that Metalworker does seem unfairly banned. Mana Crypt and Sol Ring aren't banned and they're clearly much more powerful.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-09 1:22 pm 
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Joined: 2007-May-20 9:03 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
I think the argument for banning Metalworker but not Rofellos is that many people use Rofellos to play big fatties or do other fun stuff, rather than tap and untap a billion times. No one uses Metalworker (or LED or Worldgorger) for anything widely considered to be fun. The RC has acknowledged that Rofellos may be more powerful than Metalworker, but at least it has some fun applications.

I think this is a reasonable argument. Having said that, the increasing ratio of busted to fun Rofellos decks is growing a bit tiresome.

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Last edited by That Guy on 2009-Sep-09 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-09 1:47 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That Guy wrote:
I think the argument for banning Metalworker but not Rofellos is that many people use Rofellos to play big fatties or do other fun stuff, not just tap and untap a billion times. No one uses Metalworker (or LED or Worldgorger) for anything widely considered to be fun. The RC has acknowledged that Rofellos may be more powerful than Metalworker, but at least it has some fun applications.

I think this is a reasonable argument. Having said that, the increasing ratio of busted to fun Rofellos decks is growing a bit tiresome.

Rofellos doesn't need to be your general in order for him to help you play "fun" stuff. He was never banned as a singleton in the decklist, was he? And it's not as if he doesn't do the untappy thing...in fact, he does it even more efficiently, since you only need to draw one card (Staff of Domination or Umbral Mantle) to pull it off. Metalworker has almost no advantages over Rofellos unless you include the ability to be played in a different deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-09 1:55 pm 
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Age: Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
My post wasn't intending to dispute any of that...I've tried editing to clarify.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-09 3:59 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
metal worker can be used to play big fatties too, thats how ive used him repeatedly.... sundering titan, platinum angel, darksteel colossus, inkwell leviathan, marit lage fatty token dude, etc. but why does it matter WHAT can be played with the easy mana when with rofellos, its ANYTHING. the problem lies in the fact that with rofellos, you can usually play any green spell by turn 4. and this is not an exaggeration. by t4 it is easy to have 6 forests in play, thats 12 mana. there is literally one spell with a cmc higher than 12 than can be legally played in a mono-green deck. ONE!!! and its stupid draco. a lot of other decks cant even get their generals into play by turn 6. so who cares WHAT is played, the problem is that ANYTHING can be played way too early in the game. having metalworker floating somewhere in a deck of 100 cards just does not provide this same sort of advantage. it doesnt matter how you try to justify it, rofellos is broken in this format and should either be banned and/or metalworker should be unbanned.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-09 8:05 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
Looking at the March 2009 ban announcement, I cannot understand the reasoning behind banning Metalworker because, "He produces too much mana too quickly" and then at the same time, justify the unbanning of Rofellos. Rofellos is much better at mana acceleration than Metalworker could be mainly due to Rofellos being a general (thus always having access to him) and coming out one turn faster than Metalworker.

I'm going to be brtually honest: The rules committee dropped the ball big time on this decision. Either keep both Metalworker and Rofellos legal, or have them both banned. I would go with the former decision in a heartbeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-10 3:07 pm 

Joined: 2009-Sep-05 11:10 am
Age: Hatchling
I do agree I, myself, was shocked to hear Metalworker banned when Rofellos is unbanned. The first reasoning I received possibly is that Metalworker is more broken and accelerates far more than Rofellos. Then I slapped myself and told myself that that's only possible in a heavy artifact deck.

Not to mention that Rofellos as a general is much more consistent mana acceleration. Green maybe the most casual and unthreatening color but how is colorless even more threatening? Rofellos can play all the scary stuff that Metalworker can. Metalworker only works well with Dagsson and Sharuum/Karn and it's much slower than Rofellos.

Rofellos is no longer the casual deck that people think: OMG accelerator into huge beasts. Rofellos tends to be unfriendly 1v1 combo decks that win on the basic principle most games in EDH are won with: If you have enough mana resource and card advantage and no resistance, you win the game.

I would like to hear the thoughts from the EDH committee about this. I would most certainly hope that Metalworker is unbanned. Rofellos as a general is still fine even though his acceleration is overpowering. He's still in a monogreen deck and can only abuse a couple of cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for unbanning: LED, Worldgorger, Metalworker
AgePosted: 2009-Sep-10 3:59 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Anyway, mono-green decks that want to accelerate into awesome still have Seton, Krosan Protector and Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro (and to a lesser extent Shizuko, Caller of Autumn and Azusa, Lost But Seeking) as generals who do the accelerating, and no shortage of generals like who can provide the awesome. Rofellos is still a powerful accelerant as a singleton in the decklist.


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