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 Post subject: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 4:51 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-19 4:46 am
Age: Hatchling
Can someone tell me why Gifts Ungiven is banned in EDH? i mean its just as powerful in EDH as it is in any format that its in, and its not banned in any others?


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 7:36 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
There's a thread about this already but it's pretty much as strong in EDH as it is in Vintage. It leads to game states where you assemble a combo at your previous opponent's EOT and win or dominate from there.

I love the card but have to admit it's overly strong in EDH.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 8:09 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
A singleton format is supposed to play out a bit differently every game. Gifts makes every game end pretty much the same: "EOT tutor for my two-card kill, Regrowth, and Witness, win".

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 3:38 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-19 4:46 am
Age: Hatchling
how does it make it the same every game? its 1 out of 100 cards, it can be countered, the combo pieces that you tutor for can still be disrupted. and you have to be in blue to even cast it, and its turn 4 before you can even cast it.i mean by your logic all search cards should banned? i mean, demonic tutor lets you search turn two, before your opponent can really respond... etc etc... furthermore there are more powerful spells in EDH that destroy the game state more than gifts ungiven, for example, meddling mage their general (because of course we are always assuming you opponent has no disruption when banning cards) Deceleration of naught naming their general, blood moon destroys edh decks, i could probably go on, but lets cut this short, the point is gifts ungiven's power is not degenerate, the cards it searches for are. and there are other ways to search for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 7:19 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-21 11:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Mrhippotango wrote:
how does it make it the same every game? its 1 out of 100 cards,


With about six tutors that can find it, if not more, in most decks with access to black and blue. (Tutoring for it doesn't sound all that impressive, but the fact that Gifts gets you at least two cards, often more if your combo involves the graveyard *cough*Lark*cough*, is a problem.)

Quote:
it can be countered


Counters suck in multiplayer, and if you do counter it the next player will probably get his to stick.

Quote:
and you have to be in blue to even cast it,


That covers almost 90% of decks.

Quote:
and its turn 4 before you can even cast it.


There's such a thing as acceleration, you know. I've seen a hardcast Inkwell Leviathan on turn 3. (I think it went something along the lines of "Island, Mana Vault, Voltaic Key, untap Vault, Sol Ring, Gilded Lotus, Coalition Relic, go".) That's an extreme case, obviously, but it's not that hard to get to turn 3 or even turn 2 Gifts (turn 1 Sol Ring, for instance).

Quote:
i mean by your logic all search cards should banned? i mean, demonic tutor lets you search turn two, before your opponent can really respond... etc etc...


They get you one card of your choice. Gifts gets you four. (Yes, two end up in the graveyard, but half the time that doesn't matter anyway.)

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furthermore there are more powerful spells in EDH that destroy the game state more than gifts ungiven, for example, meddling mage their general (because of course we are always assuming you opponent has no disruption when banning cards), Deceleration of naught naming their general, blood moon destroys edh decks,


There are tons of ways around Meddling Mage. Wrath effects, for instance (which are plenty good anyway). Enchantment removal is a little less common, but there are enough crazy enchantments out there that a deck that doesn't have some answers to enchantments in general is going to regret it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 8:15 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gifts is broken.
It's 4 mana for 4 cards.

And the people who play gifts are generally the kind of people who are playing to break it.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-19 11:51 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-04 4:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Toronto
As previously mentioned, Gifts is restricted in vintage. Since it is a tutor, it's power level is partly determined by what you can tutor for. With the vintage-like cardpool that EDH has, Gifts has vintage-like strength in EDH. It's vintage-like strength is enough to get it restricted in vintage, so it shouldn't be surprising that it's enough to get it banned in EDH. I personally loved gifts and played it before it was banned, but I agree that it needed banning. In a well tuned deck, there are many cards that, if you can cast them, it is very hard to lose. With gifts being one of them, and instant at 3u, I can see why it got the axe.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-20 12:46 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-10 4:48 pm
Age: Wyvern
I am not happy that gifts ungiven is gone from my teferi deck but the reasons for it are pretty straightforward. Most games that I got gifts ungiven I won because it takes almost all of the singleton out of the deck once you have cast it. I want it unbanned personally however I can see the reasoning behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-24 10:12 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-25 9:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
I used to try and put logic to the bannings but there really is none. Intuition is still allowed, sure one less card but still combo-rific. Gifts was never a problem in our group even while being used to set up combos. Anyway if you want to use it ask your group. (side note: our group loves to play relic to shut down graveyard B.S.)


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-26 9:58 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Actually, I have to agree with Pandabob.. Intuition is Gifts Ungiven -1. One less card, one less mana. Going for Time Stretch / Regrowth / Eternal Witness is just as bad as going for TS / Regrowth / Witness / who cares what else.

I don't agree, however, that Gifts wasn't a problem when it was legal. More often than not it was EOT Gifts, untap, something f'n dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-26 10:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
i always enjoy one player playing gifts, and then another responding with their own gifts.. and then another player responding with another gifts. its not really unfair if everyone is able to play with it. and intuition IS gifts minus 1 (but costs about 4x the $$$).. which in my eyes makes it slightly better cuz i can push it out by turn 3. this banning seems to favor the less strategically minded players who are less tech in how they deal with graveyards. sure having to deal with graveyards means that you have to find room in your deck for gy hate, but it should be in there anyways.

also, i think its stupid that the people who bitch about land-d making games last too long are often also in favor of banning cards like gifts that can help to end games more quickly.. a contradiction, and thus not particularly logical.....

we still allow gifts, and no one complains, because its fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-26 1:00 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-08 6:09 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Germany
Armageddon also quickens the game, but mostly in favor of the guy playing it, assuming he was cutthroat enough to optimize his deck catering a landfree board.
like jokulhaups + DSC.
gifts quickens the guy playing it towards his game ending combo/Lock/whatever and just like the LD example not only favors the guy playing it, but also reduces interactivity of the remaining game for the others.

there are, of course, exceptions, like people playing G/B fat stuff and getting 4 leviathan in their gifts pile, but the ban list assumes people playing those cards while trying to be dicks.

so, for me, LD as well as powerful tutors (or acceleration, see recurring nightmare or yawgmoth's bargain) are cards which are easily abusable and unfun.
i dont mind losing against some guy flinging levelers, or equally powerful, but creative and original card interactions, but seeing Jhoira/Obliterate/Time Stretch or erayo/arcane lab just ain't that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-27 5:18 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Intuition finds one card. Gifts finds an entire combo. That's an effect about as powerful as Time Stretch for less than half the cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-28 7:19 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-18 9:16 am
Age: Wyvern
paperwarrior nailed the intuition v. gifts argument on the head.

I don't understand why posters are still using the "but it can be disrupted..." argument for why I card should be unbannned. Every card can be disrupted, so no card should be banned?


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 Post subject: Re: Why? Gifts Ungiven
AgePosted: 2009-Aug-29 7:48 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It can't be disrupted simply or easily. I argued a long time against banning Gifts, but honestly the card's just busted and it should be banned.

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