Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Aug-22 1:30 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-15 2:32 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
And did they weigh in on anything that actually mattered for the format? No. They came in when the RC was criticized and then left as quickly as they appeared. Two whole threads full of nada over the past 9 days and what finally stirs them from their slumber is someone criticizing them.

Good job being in touch with the community.

If criticism drew responses from the RC, they'd be posting constantly. Being on the RC is like being in politics - there is ALWAYS someone mad about something and holding them personally responsible, or twisting something they said and taking it out of context and using it as an excuse for unnecessary rage. I once had to have an argument at the LGS because someone claimed "Sheldon is trying to ban Lightning Greaves", and he was all upset about it. This was due to an article Sheldon posted to SCG in which he did a thought experiment for if he was forced to ban a bunch more cards, what would he pick and why?

Furthermore, the RC DOES listen to the community... some things that have been at least in part fostered by community input include the adoption of the Command Zone for the general (in case you weren't aware, prior to the release of Planechase the general was in exile, which resulted in Riftsweeper being on the banned list. When planechase hit, WotC created the command zone for the planes to exist in (and later on emblems)), the formalizing of rule 13 (the wish rule), the concept of Color Identity, and the banning and unbanning of several cards.


Personally, I think an issue is that the feedback the RC gets is from a very, very small percentage of the people who play EDH. After all, the people who use this forum and those who go to conventions where members of the RC attend only make up a fraction of the wider EDH community. There's bound to be some skewed representation of ideas because of that. I think having a more efficient platform for the wider community to provide feedback and gather statistics would help. I know that the RC isn't a big company like WOTC, but to be blunt, if the answer to "get more feedback and statistics" is "that's too big of a job for the RC" then maybe it's time for them to enlist some help from organizations that can get that job done. (Again this is just my opinion let's remember we're all friends here.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-15 3:23 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Carthain wrote:
Kemev: You're pushing for these cards to be unbanned. Would you be just as happy if some or all of the cards you're comparing them to (T&N, Exsanguinate, etc) were banned as well?


If you had asked me 2-3 years ago, I would've said yes, let's push to take T&N and some similar cards out of the format (in fact, I'm pretty sure there's a thread where Kong and I argue the issue... I couldn't find it at a glance).

But now, I don't think that works anymore... I took about a year, 18 months or so off of Magic entirely, and now that I'm playing again, I find Commander quite a bit different. I'm not sure whether it was my perception evolved, or the cards, or the general player population (probably a combination of all of the above). I think at some point, most folks have gotten ok with the big sorcery win-con, and I don't find much reason to object. On top of that, WotC seems to have picked up that a lot of players enjoy big spells, so they're going to keep making new ones.

It's sorta like mass land destruction... yeah, it can be annoying in the wrong group, but there's so many similar cards it doesn't make sense to try to legislate it away.

paragon_deku wrote:
assorted comments


@paragon_deku: I feel like you're not helping your case here. I say that as someone who agrees with a couple of your points, and as someone who's been been critical of the RC (both here, and on other channels). Here are a few points to consider:

-- First and foremost, Commander's pretty great. Continuous improvement's a real thing, but there's nothing player-facing that's worth getting angry about
-- The RC's already taken steps to start improving accessibility/player communication issues with the new player advisory group, all of whom have active social media presences. (The announcement was here, on SCG, and on multiple other channels.) If you feel like you need someone to yell, at you have options. (Maybe consider not yelling at people though.)
-- There's this weird subtext going on here about respect. This particular community has an unusually high density of judges, TOs, bloggers, and people who've been playing and/or posting here for years. This isn't reddit where someone can show up, post some inflammatory nonsense to earn some coins and upvotes, and then try to parley that into being an authority figure. The only thing you're likely to earn at this pace is a ban.
-- Many of these assorted comments come across as flame bait; they directly attack other people without addressing any substantial argument. Again, this isn't reddit; there's nothing to be gained here from trying to stir people up. I don't know that many of us have ever met in person, but I think we all try to remember that there's a real person somewhere behind the screen.

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-15 3:37 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Kemev wrote:
Carthain wrote:


@paragon_deku: I feel like you're not helping your case here. I say that as someone who agrees with a couple of your points, and as someone who's been been critical of the RC (both here, and on other channels). Here are a few points to consider:

-- First and foremost, Commander's pretty great. Continuous improvement's a real thing, but there's nothing player-facing that's worth getting angry about
-- The RC's already taken steps to start improving accessibility/player communication issues with the new player advisory group, all of whom have active social media presences. (The announcement was here, on SCG, and on multiple other channels.) If you feel like you need someone to yell, at you have options. (Maybe consider not yelling at people though.)
-- There's this weird subtext going on here about respect. This particular community has an unusually high density of judges, TOs, bloggers, and people who've been playing and/or posting here for years. This isn't reddit where someone can show up, post some inflammatory nonsense to earn some coins and upvotes, and then try to parley that into being an authority figure. The only thing you're likely to earn at this pace is a ban.
-- Many of these assorted comments come across as flame bait; they directly attack other people without addressing any substantial argument. Again, this isn't reddit; there's nothing to be gained here from trying to stir people up. I don't know that many of us have ever met in person, but I think we all try to remember that there's a real person somewhere behind the screen.

1. That's fair, which is why I apologized. But my anger was less over the game itself and more so the annoying attitude of some other people in this thread, contributing non-arguments and peddling the concept of "good" opinions.
2. See #1.
3. Oddly enough, I've raised similar points on reddit and the responses were basically canned versions of what people in this thread have said. The imaginary internet clout from forum posts and from internet points is not that different for some people. I'm not saying I'm an authority figure, but at the same time having a lot of forum posts doesn't make you an authority figure, nor is it reflective of experience with the game itself.
4. Reacting angrily to smug and entitled statements is not flamebait. If anything, the entitled statements are closer to flamebait. I'm not trying to stir people up anymore than anyone else, I just get pissed off when the response to having concerns about the banlist and questioning the responsiveness of the RC is "bro just get GOOD opinions and drive to conventions lol." Furthermore, I'd like to point out again that the one papa_funky reply in this thread was basically just a flex over authority and addressed nothing of relevance in this thread.

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-15 3:47 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
Two whole threads full of nada over the past 9 days and what finally stirs them from their slumber is someone criticizing them.


Actually, it was someone criticizing well-respected members of the forum, who we don't necessarily agree with, but respect, because they don't come in and start demanding that they be heard. And doing it in a truly ironic way.

I checked the thread after getting back from a week in Bulgaria and nothing looked like it needed any official comment. There's a bunch of discussion that isn't really treading new ground. I posted a detailed discussion of Coalition Victory within the last few months that got some chatter going around here, and Recurring Nightmare being unbanned gets discussed so much here that it's become a meme.

It is ludicrously easy to get the attention of an RC or CAG member and odds are that multiple of them will read anything you post on a major discussion board or online site (I agree that the IRC channel is basically dead, but that's because IRC is basically dead; we should probably remove that link). That is not the same as getting a response from the RC, which is not something you should expect or demand. We post when we have something interesting to say or to advance a discussion (or, occasionally to settle people down), not to get involved in internet arguments. Cryogen, viperion, kemev and the others who you seem to think are buddies (I have met none of them in person, I don't think) don't get responses to most of their posts either. It's nothing personal.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-15 11:36 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Going back earlier, this part is just true:
paragon_deku wrote:
As for democratic choices in banning, most people I play commander with feel very disenfranchised from the decision process and feel quite powerless when it comes to the banlist. (...) To make a long story short, a lot of players feel isolated from airing their grievances and the RC is not giving a good way to put those opinions in front of them.

We are disenfranchised -- we don't have the power to vote in the decision process. It isn't democratic. And that's normal and fine -- I don't think any format has a ban list that's democratic. They're handled by rules managers who have an intent for the format's shape and manage what's necessary to achieve it. The community's feedback is a part of that process but one that doesn't ever directly flow into a ban list change.

It would also be unrealistic of us to expect that a group of four(?) unpaid volunteer rules managers who have busy lives outside of EDH social media would have the time and energy to respond to everybody discussing EDH.

I've got cards I'm unhappy with and shouldn't be in the format, but I've come to recognise they're in there because the RC has a different intent for the format than what I thought it was or what I'd prefer it was. I've come to accept that, and it's been helpful in figuring out what makes the format tick. They can't make everyone happy of course.

FWIW, my personal bar for thinking a card should be banned is probably something like "this card does consistently unfun things to games", but the RC's is something closer to "this card will literally destroy the format by its presence sooner or later". That's a huge gap and one it's been helpful for me to be aware of.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 1:11 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Personally, I think an issue is that the feedback the RC gets is from a very, very small percentage of the people who play EDH.

While there is certainly no way they can monitor and gather data from the entire EDH playing population, I think the dataset they get is bigger than you think.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 2:06 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Personally, I think an issue is that the feedback the RC gets is from a very, very small percentage of the people who play EDH.

While there is certainly no way they can monitor and gather data from the entire EDH playing population, I think the dataset they get is bigger than you think.


Well right now I think it’s pretty small so I’d hope it’s bigger than that haha. Do you have any way to corroborate that statement? (Not trying to be rude I’m actually genuinely curious but that doesn’t translate well over text)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 5:34 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Kemev wrote:
-- The RC's already taken steps to start improving accessibility/player communication issues with the new player advisory group, all of whom have active social media presences. (The announcement was here, on SCG, and on multiple other channels.) If you feel like you need someone to yell, at you have options. (Maybe consider not yelling at people though.)


Bringing up new points usually gets some response, but even if there's none that doesn't mean it's not read. Although I suspect the pile of "pls ban sol ring" messages is big enough to bury any good message.

papa_funk wrote:
Recurring Nightmare being unbanned gets discussed so much here that it's become a meme.


I think they're on to us.

_________________
"Our words are backed with OBLIVION STONE!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 6:23 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Speaking of unbanning I dream of a day when I can play with Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial unbanned


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 6:26 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
The entitlement from this post is radiant.


It takes minimal effort to reach the RC or CAG. There are far more than two ways to do it and cryogen helpfully pointed out several of them.

Ironically, you insult someone who has put in the work in the endless void of social media to demonstrate that they are a voice worth listening to, whether the RC ends up agreeing with him or not. Cryogen is not entitled; he's earned it.

You seem to believe that the RC should have to listen and take time to carefully weigh your opinions. You are demanding you be heard, despite having put in zero effort to show that you are a voice worth hearing. That is not how the world works.

Go show that you have awesome ideas and the RC will notice.

Thank you for the kinds words. (And no, we haven't met yet because you couldn't make it to Roanoke and I'll be unable to get out to Indy.)

=============================================================

I'll say one last thing p_d about this, but it probably won't matter to you.

There's another reason why the RC aren't deep in the trenches commenting on every single thread every single day. They want to sit back and let the community discuss the format without interference. If their goal was to steer conversation or influence opinions, then they wouldn't even need the forums. They could just hole up in their secret cabal base in Sheldon's basement drinking wine all day and manage the ban list based on the way their 4-player games go.


No Cows, no you don't. Prime Time was insidiously bad for the format, and SP was just a fun suck.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 6:56 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Speaking of unbanning I dream of a day when I can play with Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial unbanned

Thankfully, this will never happen.

It is impossible to overstate or exaggerate how much of a blight on the format Primeval Titan was when it was in. It was constantly the target of every tutor, theft, copy, recur, and reanimate effect in the game, and those effects became more and more common in decks specifically to exploit it. Not only that, but decks started running green (i.e. changing their general) specifically to accommodate it, and it was such a certainty that you would have the chance to abuse the Titan (whether it be yours or an opponent's) that decks that didn't run it still built themselves around it.

You had Cabal Coffers run in 3+ color decks because you could guarantee that it and Urborg showed up together. Act of Treason-type became far and away the best cards in red, while Bribery became the best card in the format after the Titan. And decks started running so many colorless or ETB tapped utility lands that the Titan stopped being merely a ramp effect and was also itself a multi-tutor.

Sylvan Primordial had a lesser version of the same problems, with the added problem of it being a powerful removal piece/land destruction card. Games with it frequently resulted in the ramp player getting it out T2-5, setting everyone else back tremendously while ramping even more, and then using a clone or bounce spell to basically lock out the rest of the table. Even in games where that didn't happen, the fact that its destruction wasn't a may ability often meant that it would kick the player in last place en passant.

_________________


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 8:07 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Speaking of unbanning I dream of a day when I can play with Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial unbanned

Thankfully, this will never happen.

It is impossible to overstate or exaggerate how much of a blight on the format Primeval Titan was when it was in. It was constantly the target of every tutor, theft, copy, recur, and reanimate effect in the game, and those effects became more and more common in decks specifically to exploit it. Not only that, but decks started running green (i.e. changing their general) specifically to accommodate it, and it was such a certainty that you would have the chance to abuse the Titan (whether it be yours or an opponent's) that decks that didn't run it still built themselves around it.

You had Cabal Coffers run in 3+ color decks because you could guarantee that it and Urborg showed up together. Act of Treason-type became far and away the best cards in red, while Bribery became the best card in the format after the Titan. And decks started running so many colorless or ETB tapped utility lands that the Titan stopped being merely a ramp effect and was also itself a multi-tutor.

Sylvan Primordial had a lesser version of the same problems, with the added problem of it being a powerful removal piece/land destruction card. Games with it frequently resulted in the ramp player getting it out T2-5, setting everyone else back tremendously while ramping even more, and then using a clone or bounce spell to basically lock out the rest of the table. Even in games where that didn't happen, the fact that its destruction wasn't a may ability often meant that it would kick the player in last place en passant.


This is more or less a summary of the reasoning given at the time these cards were banned, but while I think it was somewhat appropriate then, I disagree that the same issues would happen again in today’s EDH format.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 9:09 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
For Prime Time in particular, I think it’s pretty hard to argue that the quality of utility lands has gone down in the last seven years. Prime Time was banned just before RTR, so everything from Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to Thespian’s Stage to Inventor’s Fair , among others, wasn’t released yet. Nor has removal improved, or clones and theft effects gotten worse. I can’t see the situation changing at all.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 9:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
CowsCowsCows wrote:
This is more or less a summary of the reasoning given at the time these cards were banned, but while I think it was somewhat appropriate then, I disagree that the same issues would happen again in today’s EDH format.

I strongly disagree. Nothing has changed significantly that would make Prime Time any less desirable, nor make SyPrime any less oppressive and obnoxious.

Please do not even THINK of saying "Why don't we unban Emrakul".

CowsCowsCows wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Personally, I think an issue is that the feedback the RC gets is from a very, very small percentage of the people who play EDH.

While there is certainly no way they can monitor and gather data from the entire EDH playing population, I think the dataset they get is bigger than you think.


Well right now I think it’s pretty small so I’d hope it’s bigger than that haha. Do you have any way to corroborate that statement? (Not trying to be rude I’m actually genuinely curious but that doesn’t translate well over text)

Well, for starters, I know that the RC pays attention to a wide variety of message boards on the topic. That doesn't mean they play with everyone (obviously this is impossible) nor does it mean they respond to every post/topic regarding EDH (again, this would be impossible), but it DOES mean that they hear the stories and opinions of a wide spectrum of players, both casual and not, that extends well beyond these boards and their local playgroups. They also have a strong relationship with WotC, both due to prior history (they're all high-level DCI judges, in case you didn't know) and because of WotC's decision to officially support EDH and work with the RC in so doing. And now there's the CAG, which expands the number of voices being heard both directly (as the CAG and the RC interact) as well as indirectly (as information passes to them through the CAG). Obviously there is no way to poll the entirety of the magic-playing world, but given the prevalence of social media in people's lives today, and the RC's presence thereon, I think the sample size is much better than you're giving credit for.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 10:12 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
Reacting angrily to smug and entitled statements is not flamebait. If anything, the entitled statements are closer to flamebait. I'm not trying to stir people up anymore than anyone else, I just get pissed off when the response to having concerns about the banlist and questioning the responsiveness of the RC is "bro just get GOOD opinions and drive to conventions lol."
Literally no one said that. They pointed out multiple online and in-person ways to address them. Having good ideas is a lot different than having good opinions.

Quote:
Furthermore, I'd like to point out again that the one papa_funky reply in this thread was basically just a flex over authority and addressed nothing of relevance in this thread.
Did you honestly think you were saying something that has not been brought up a dozen times before? The RC not immediately changing based on your input is not a 'flex', its how the world works. He did point where he has addressed those items previously, and the forum has a robust search engine.

Lots of people here disagree with things the RC does, and we voice them. Some change, most do not. You are reading that as them being out of touch, instead of confident their ideas are correct.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 44 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: