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 Post subject: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-05 12:18 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
https://weirdcards.org/oathbreaker

Although Brawl doesn't seem to have had much of an impact with the wider playerbase, I wonder if this might still have a place, what with how WotC pushes planeswalkers as their signature.

A couple of notes:

1. Weird Cards settled on 60 cards/20 life as making the most strategies viable (e.g. burn struggling in Commander). I'll admit I'm curious as to whether they tested 80 cards/30 life. Either way, it also has the effect, according to at least one video, of precluding 3-6 hour games (his words, not mine). Of course, a smaller library means less variation in successive games...

2. It's important to realize that you have two command zone cards--your planeswalker leader (they can't all be breaking an oath. See, for example, Ob Nixilis.), and a signature spell (sorcery or instant) that can only be used when the leader is out, and is also subject to tax.


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-08 6:25 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Why can't it just be called a commander and not be confusing and then imposing on yourself a rule that "Cards which refer to your commander refer to your Oathbreaker"?

Saheeli is banned? Just for the +1 that reduces the cost of the signature spell?

Upheaval and Tooth and Nail are banned but not Yawg Will and Demonic Tutor??

Emrakul banned??? Ad Nauseam? Banned why?

It's like it lazily copy-pasted Commander banlist and then a handful of cards they were tired of losing to? How and why are you are casting Expropriate and Primal Surge in a 'fast' format with 20 life?

Seems really cool but also really try-hard. I usually hate when people say that but i'm at a loss for a better description of how i feel.

Teferi Time Raveler + Force of Will seems pretty cool.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier + Dark Ritual not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-07 3:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
As it was already mentioned in the latest episode of Command Zone on YouTube, Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God + The Elderspell is more than likely going to be tier 0 in Oathbreaker with Ashiok, Dream Render + Glimpse the Unthinkable shutting down combo decks indefinitely while denying your opponents resources by exiling cards from their library. Narset, Parter of Veils + Windfall almost screams Leovold, Emissary of Trest with Teferi's Puzzle Box all over again though. If only Urza, Academy Headmaster + Conflux was officially viable since we don't officially have a 5 Color Planeswalker yet.

I think my biggest concern with Oathbreaker as a format will be it's potential impact on the Secondary Market especially If Force of Will spikes in price due to Teferi, Time Raveler without a reprint in Modern Horizons. Time will tell If people start taking this format as seriously as EDH / Commander where card singles are already having a financial impact on other formats with Standard, Modern, and Legacy. That and I partially blame Star City Games and Channel Fireball for artificially inflating the price of competitive Modern staples when there's absolutely no reason to.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


Last edited by Card Slinger J on 2019-May-07 5:14 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-07 3:40 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The fact that the banned list is just a copy-paste of the commander list is even more bizarre the more I think about it. Panoptic Mirror is garbage in this format, Servantstone seems even worse in a format where everyone has immediate access to a removal spell, and pretty much all of the big mana spells are way too slow for a 60-card 20-life format. And of all cards that have been banned previously, one would think Protean Hulk would be too strong in a format where your commander can be Flash.


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-07 4:09 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Oathbreaker feels like a missed opportunity to go after certain Planeswalker ability synergies that make for non-interactive board states in which the R&D team took for granted. Narset, Parter of Veils + Windfall is a prime example of that since she can set opponents back several turns from being able to keep up with you. Don't get me started with Ral, Storm Conduit + Expansion // Explosion not to mention Gideon of the Trials being an auto win with his 0 emblem. Why not tutor twice with Liliana Vess's -2 and Demonic Tutor to combo out?

Jace Beleren + Show and Tell seems like it could be really good for group hug shenanigans in Oathbreaker. Get everyone to draw cards while also being able to cheat their other permanents onto the battlefield. Even Braids, Conjurer Adept could add in on the fun as well. Maybe Vivien, Champion of the Wilds + Hypergenesis could be useful for giving one of your opponents' creatures reach and vigilance while also getting more of their permanents onto the battlefield with Hypergenesis.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 4:11 pm 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So the deal is you can play a 58 card deck with the most broken spells ever as your general? ...pretty much any degenerate idiocy is possible (and on a budget, no less). Besides the aforementioned Narset, Parter of Wills + Windfall, Yawgmoth's Will, and Flash you got:

Ashiok, Dream Render + Exhume
pretty much anyone + Frantic Search
...if for some reason Frantic Search doesn't float your boat, any Reset or Vitalize effect is fine
Nissa, Steward of Elements + Glimpse of Nature
Domri, Anarch of Bolas + Through the Breach

This seems like it goes the way of Tiny Leaders pretty quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 12:45 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Based on what I've been hearing, this new format isn't as broken as it seems. Sure, you can combo out of your Command Zone or run Demonic Tutor as your Signature Spell, though everyone seems to be missing the fact that you have 20 life in a 4 player game. People don't like losing to combo and If that's your game plan then it's telegraphed from the time you sit down and start shuffling. Well built Oathbreaker decks are much more low to the ground than EDH decks and If you start the game in an Archenemy position, chances are you're dead by turn 5 to combat damage.

Is Oathbreaker broken as a format? Sure. So is EDH / Commander yet it is either the most popular or second most popular way to play Magic period. The vast majority of playgroups don't play cEDH (Competitive EDH / Commander) because they don't find it fun, and the same will likely be true for Oathbreaker as well. Games are shorter because decks are more consistent. That's a good thing for many playgroups. An average game of Oathbreaker is normally 30-50 minutes and is usually pretty swingy and fun. It feels more like Multiplayer Modern than EDH / Commander.

It's one thing to be skeptical of the format but to call the format solved or broken without having played a game is flat out wrong. Oathbreaker is different from EDH / Commander in a big way actually, however better is entirely subjective. Games are much faster and Aggro/Burn is a force to be reckoned with. With the combination of a Planeswalker and a Signature Spell (Instant or Sorcery) in the Command Zone you can also build around very focused game plans and build super consistent decks, much more so than in EDH / Commander.

It's a 6-8 turn format vs. an 8-12 turn format like EDH / Commander. It's a nice alternative way to play Multiplayer when you don't have time to sit down for a 90+ minute EDH / Commander game. I've already talked to my local EDH playgroup about Oathbreaker where a couple seem to have an interest in trying it out while one is still unsure about it. As for me I haven't officially decided on a Planeswalker and Signature Spell yet though I'd love to see Wizards of the Coast design a Phelddagrif Planeswalker to add more of a group hug aspect to the format If it actually takes off.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm starting to come around on this... I think the banned list needs quite a bit of work though. Narset, Parter of Veils is a menace to society, and I think some of the titans could be unbanned. The signature spells also seem really tough to balance, but maybe that's where you throw in the towel and say "broken format, go nuts"

I'm not convinced this is a turn 5 format.

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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 2:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Anytime I try to brew a new deck for Oathbreaker it always feels as though there aren't enough Planeswalkers with loyalty abilities that synergize well with other Instants and/or Sorceries as the Signature Spell where I often feel like I'm stuck having to go with a tribal theme around a specific creature type and play Aggro. If my Oathbreaker is Garruk Wildspeaker I run Beasts, Sarkhan I run Dragons, Elspeth with Soldiers, and the list goes on. Lord Windgrace does have synergy with Crop Rotation as his Signature Spell, as does Jace Beleren with Show and Tell as his Signature Spell. So maybe I'm not looking hard enough while browsing through other Planeswalkers and Instants / Sorceries to try to center a strategy toward.

Planeswalkers seem to have the least amount of power creep compared to Legendary Creatures which could explain my dilemma when brewing for Oathbreaker. Superfriends only appears to be more broken in EDH / Commander due to having 40 extra cards / 20 extra life where as the 60 card deck limit in Oathbreaker seems to hinder it's consistency from focusing less on the Oathbreaker itself. In other words, you can easily get away with not having to cast your Commander in a regular EDH / Commander game compared to being required to cast your Oathbreaker due to the significance of the Signature Spell you're running. Can a Oathbreaker deck function without having to rely on either the Oathbreaker and / or Signature Spell?

_________________
"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-20 12:48 pm 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Card Slinger J wrote:
Anytime I try to brew a new deck for Oathbreaker it always feels as though there aren't enough Planeswalkers with loyalty abilities that synergize well with other Instants and/or Sorceries as the Signature Spell where I often feel like I'm stuck having to go with a tribal theme around a specific creature type and play Aggro.


Hmm, I there's room to dig deeper. There are plenty of pairings that seem to build themselves, like Daretti, Scrap Servant + Scrap Mastery.

I've been going back to look at Legacy, Modern, and old Extended lists for inspiration.

Post some lists, get your creative juices working.

Card Slinger J wrote:
Can a Oathbreaker deck function without having to rely on either the Oathbreaker and / or Signature Spell?


I think it probably should. Even if you're playing a super fast Oathbreaker/Spell combo (like UG Nissa + Glimpse of Nature, maybe), you're looking at needing at least 4+ mana before you're ready to get to work.
That's pretty durdly for starting at 20 life. If you want to do something early, it's gotta come from the other 58.

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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 3:58 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I did recently come up with this list a few days ago, I call it "Tamiyo Explores ASMR":

Oathbreaker / Signature Spell - (2)
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Sleep

Creatures - (10)
1 Thrummingbird
1 Guildpact Informant
1 Flux Channeler
1 Viral Drake
1 Hunted Phantasm
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Niblis of Frost
1 Mischievous Quanar
1 Guardian of Tazeem
1 Frost Titan

Instants - (8)
1 Clockspinning
1 Steady Progress
1 Fuel for the Cause
1 Reality Spasm
1 Turnabout
1 Ensnare
1 Mind Games
1 Icy Blast

Sorceries - (4)
1 Contentious Plan
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Theft of Dreams
1 Borrowing 100,000 Arrows

Artifacts - (10)
1 Sky Diamond
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Eye of Ramos
1 Mind Stone
1 Hedron Archive
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Expedition Map
1 Thought Vessel
1 Venser's Journal

Enchantments - (4)
1 Frozen Aether
1 Opposition
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Dream Tides

Lands - (22)
13 Island
1 Coral Atoll
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Remote Isle
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Terrain Generator
1 Karn's Bastion
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Deck's pretty much based around Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's -2 loyalty ability to draw off of each tapped creature my opponents control while Sleep ensures that they don't untap during their controllers' next untap step. I also run a lot of proliferate to help keep loyalty counters on Tamiyo, the Moon Sage for spamming her -2 loyalty ability while Hunted Phantasm and Forbidden Orchard is to help against decks that lack enough creatures to cast my Signature Spell.

I figured since I'm going to be drawing tons of cards off of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Theft of Dreams, and Borrowing 100,000 Arrows why not run Kefnet the Mindful, Thought Vessel, Venser's Journal, and Reliquary Tower? I'd like to try to run more "Enters the Battlefield Tapped" abilities for my opponents permanents similar to Dream Tides and Orb of Dreams. I might look into stuff from Modern Horizons to help improve this deck a bit more If I get around to actually building it.

_________________
"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-26 4:32 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
This format is actually a lot of fun. I've been playing it almost exclusively recently, against a wide range of casual / comp. I agree that the banlist is a little weird, but as is the case with EDH, it's a very good starting place for playgroups to come up with what works for them.
Card Slinger J wrote:
Anytime I try to brew a new deck for Oathbreaker it always feels as though there aren't enough Planeswalkers with loyalty abilities that synergize well with other Instants and/or Sorceries as the Signature Spell
. . .
Can a Oathbreaker deck function without having to rely on either the Oathbreaker and / or Signature Spell?

Are you asking from a competitive mindset? This format, like EDH, is intended for casual. In casual, there's a LOT of room for creative builds. I have a Lord Windgrace that forces opponents to gain life with Triskaidekaphobia and Grove of the Burnwillows and then uses Punishing Fire and Kavu Predator and Needlebite Trap; Summer Bloom is my signature spell but the deck is hardly reliant on either Windgrace or Bloom. I have a more competitive Saheeli, Sublime Artificer that uses countermagic and removal and draw, my preferred signature is Shrapnel Blast but I've seen many other Saheeli players use Thoughtcast. I have a silly Sarkhan Unbroken deck with Manamorphose as my signature spell, I use Prismatic Omen and Nylea's Presence and Reef Shaman to try to power out Domain = 5 spells and Converge/Sunburst. Kaya, Ghost Assassin cycling 'tribal' with Astral Slide and the new one from MH1. Tamiyo, Field Researcher with 28 morphs. There is a lot of room to build something that can be fun for you and your opponents under the right circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 2:31 pm 

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
...there's a LOT of room for creative builds...


Could you indulge us with some decklists?

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 Post subject: Re: Oathbreaker (60-card, planeswalkers for commanders)
AgePosted: 2019-May-31 10:15 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Ajani Hatecats - W hatebears with Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants/Harm's Way. Getting to his ult is nice, but the deck also makes good use of his -2, making Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle a very good backup.

Ajani Untouchable - GW Spiritcraft / Arcane tribal with Ajani, the Greathearted/Teferi's Protection. Very good anti-discard deck, if you expect to run into a lot of Siphon Mind / Windfall effects.

Arlinn Wolfchantress - RG Enchantress and Wolves with Arlinn Kord/Moonmist. Raised by Wolves and Nyxborn Wolf pull double duty.

Ashiok Mill - UB Mill with Ashiok, Dream Render/Glimpse the Unthinkable. There are many other lists better than mine, this was just an early idea I had before seeing Ashiok is one of the top 5 most popular Oathbreakers in the format. After playing almost exclusively EDH for 10+ years, I just really wanted a deck wherein Shelldock Isle was a good card.

Dack B-Sides - UR color shenanigans & non-staples with Dack Fayden/Pyroblast. While not completely staple-free, I tried to include as many "wait, what's that do?" cards as I could and still keep it functional. Many of the cards (including the signature spell) get WAY better if I miraculously find myself with a Dack emblem, but each card is intended to have at least some value without Dack.

Kiora B-Sides - GU color shenanigans & non-staples with Kiora, Master of the Depths/Tangle. More overlap with the Dack idea than I would like, and less synergy with my Oathbreaker than Dack's deck. Kiora is a lot better at protecting herself, though, and Lumbering Satyr + Whim of Volrath/Spectral Shift is quite satisfying. Tangle as a signature spell is a really good rattlesnake.

Daretti Corpse Dancer - RB reanimator and Necrotic Ooze combo with Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast/Betrayal of Flesh. This deck began as an attempt to set up a combo of Bitter Ordeal and Psychogenic Probe with a high-but-not-infinite gravestorm, but I found that so much harder to put together than a simple infinite gravestorm. My Oathbreaker and signature spell are only moderately useful for my deck, not a necessary to cast more than once per game.

Huatli Butts - GW Big Butts with Huatli, the Sun's Heart/Heroic Intervention. This is the Oathbreaker version of Doran / Arcades the Strategist. Sheltering Word / Wave of Reckoning / Retribution of the Meek / Scars of the Veteran would all be good alternatives for signature spell; I just went with the generic best way to protect Huatli.

Kaya Astral - WB Astral Slide / Astral Drift with Kaya, Ghost Assassin/Austere Command. There's also a Constellation subtheme that allows Skybind/Daxos the Returned to interact nicely with the deck. Also, you'll notice Karn's Bastion in a LOT of Oathbreaker lists, it is included in this one but only because of the interaction with Archfiend of Ifnir / Ruthless Sniper.

Koth Zada & Friends - R Spellslinger Aggro with Koth of the Hammer/Volt Charge. Very casual, with a handful of Allies and Changelings.

Jace Lab Maniac - U Self Mill with Jace, Wielder of Mysteries/Fabricate. Can self mill with either Persistent Petitioners (signature spell tutoring for Thrumming Stone) or Leveler. Non-interactive wins are not really my thing, but I saw someone else playing a version of this deck and I just felt compelled to make a more resilient version.

Windgrace Offerings - BRG Lands and Gifting Life with Lord Windgrace/Summer Bloom.

Saheeli Super Prowess - UR Control with Saheeli, Sublime Artificer/Shrapnel Blast. No real 'finisher' for this Control deck, other than a gradually building swarm of 1/1s and some signature spell 5 damage to the face.

Sarkhan Converge - GUR Control with Sarkhan Unbroken/Manamorphose. Contains Draco, which is probably pretty rare for this format.

Sorin Vamps - WB Aggro with Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord/Arterial Flow. Not really dedicated Vampire Tribal, just reanimator with a little Vampire support. WARNING - contains Kormus Bell, which can be a big griefer card. Make sure your playgroup is OK with it before you play it.

Tamiyo Morph - GWU Morphs with Tamiyo, Field Researcher/Teferi's Protection. Piloting an Oathbreaker/Signature Spell this scary on top of a deck this weak is often political suicide, but I've managed to win once with it. Probably would have better chances with a weaker spell like Flurry of Wings or Treva's Charm, but I worry Tamiyo herself might be the problem and I don't want to play Estrid in a deck with almost no enchantments.

Tezzeret Haterocks - U Soft Stax with Tezzeret the Seeker/Thoughtcast. This deck I made just because I thought "Wouldn't it be funny if Tezz used his -2 to find Null Rod, and his +1 then became vigilance for Ornithopter?" Not strong enough to be competitive, but a this could be a little too griefer for casual, depending on your group.


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