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 Post subject: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-31 11:19 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Creatures: 38
1x Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1x Ashen-Skin Zubera
1x Bloodghast
1x Briarknit Kami
1x Carven Caryatid
1x Cloudhoof Kirin
1x Dreamcatcher
1x Dripping-Tongue Zubera
1x Drowned Rusalka
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Elder Pine of Jukai
1x Ethereal Usher
1x Floating-Dream Zubera
1x Forked-Branch Garami
1x Guardian of Solitude
1x He Who Hungers
1x Iname, Death Aspect
1x Infernal Kirin
1x Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1x Keiga, the Tide Star
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Kodama of the South Tree
1x Kyoki, Sanity's Eclipse
1x Lifespinner
1x Loam Dweller
1x Mausoleum Wanderer
1x Mindshrieker
1x Nether Traitor
1x Petalmane Baku
1x Plagued Rusalka
1x Pus Kami
1x Rattlechains
1x Sewerdreg
1x Shinen of Life's Roar
1x Sire of the Storm
1x Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Verdant Eidolon

Artifacts: 2
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Urza's Incubator

Enchantments: 15
1x Animate Dead
1x Coils of the Medusa
1x Compulsion
1x Descendants' Path
1x Dragon Wings
1x Elemental Resonance
1x Fertile Ground
1x Khalni Heart Expedition
1x Mana Bloom
1x Necromancy
1x Seal of Doom
1x Secrets of the Dead
1x Shade's Form
1x Shielding Plax
1x Sultai Ascendancy

Instants: 1
1x Grisly Salvage

Sorceries: 4
1x Buried Alive
1x Dark Deal
1x Edge of Autumn
1x Read the Bones

Lands: 39
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Bad River
1x Breeding Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Evolving Wilds
8x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Homeward Path
5x Island
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
8x Swamp
1x Temple of Deceit
1x Underground River
1x Watery Grave
1x Woodland Cemetery


Explanation
Okay, this is a very rough draft. I'm not a Muldrotha player, and I've never played anything Spirit tribal. I came into this thinking it might be interesting to combine Muldrotha's ability with a variety of spirit abilities--including, but not limited to, Soulshift. So I'm wanting to keep this as pure Spirit tribal as I can, which is why you'll notice your favorite Muldrotha staples probably aren't in here.

I'm still not sure if I should go a little more all-in on Zubera creatures by including Arcane Adaptation and Conspiracy. Seems really good, but I don't really know. I also have side-stepped Iname, Death Ascept combo and anything to do with Deadeye Navigator. I may have to investigate those later if the deck just can't keep up. And boy howdy I think I'm so mana-hungry I don't even know.

There's also an overall lack of instants and sorceries in the deck, which is more or less by design. That might be an incorrect choice, or perhaps I should go even further and include Primal Surge. Too many possibilities at this point.

I'm happy to hear any thoughts or advice.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-01 10:10 am 
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Segrus wrote:
There's also an overall lack of instants and sorceries in the deck, which is more or less by design. That might be an incorrect choice

That seems like a correct choice to me.

I think you need more sac outlets, to utilize soulshift and to set up re-casts from yard. A lot of your spirits have "cast spirit or arcane spells" triggers, so you want to get those casts as much as possible.

May I also suggest Lion's Eye Diamond (if you can find one)? This would help both with your mana issues and give you an artifact to play with Muldrotha's ability. The discard would be largely mitigated by your ability to simply cast the stuff from the yard.

Going all-in on Zubera would be cute, but ultimately I don't think it would be very good, or at least not very reliable. It feels like you'd have a lot of disappointing games with that as a strategy.

Long-Forgotten Gohei would be another useful add.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-01 12:22 pm 
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Thanks for giving it a once-over. You're probably right about the sac outlets. Most of the sac outlets I had set aside were creatures, but ended up cutting them to remain pure Spirit tribal. Greater Good is probably one of the sac outlets I need to find and I'll have to look around at what else I should get (obviously Survival of the Fittest, but that thing is so far out of what I'm willing to pay right now--although, Evolutionary Leap is still a solid price).

I do actually have a Lion's Eye Diamond. And I also know it's pretty standard Muldrotha card due to its combo capabilities. I'd been avoiding it a little, to be honest.

Is Long-Forgotten Gohei good enough? I mean, half of the card will be wasted due to the lack of Arcane cards, so it's primarily a 3-cost +1/+1 blanket. Maybe there'd be a better card for that purpose? I'm honestly asking.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 7:43 am 
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I think this list has some issues. I feel like Muldrotha really sings when you can use it to play multiple cards a turn out of the 'yard. The easiest way to set that up is to play a balance of different card types (ie, play plenty of artifacts, enchants, planeswalkers, and look for creatures with multiple card types). I don't know that spirits as a theme really jives with this; it's not like there are a lot of artifact creature spirits to play with, and needing to focus on permanents prevents you from playing around with arcane cards.

Karador would be a better option.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 8:28 am 
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Kemev wrote:
I think this list has some issues. I feel like Muldrotha really sings when you can use it to play multiple cards a turn out of the 'yard. The easiest way to set that up is to play a balance of different card types (ie, play plenty of artifacts, enchants, planeswalkers, and look for creatures with multiple card types). I don't know that spirits as a theme really jives with this; it's not like there are a lot of artifact creature spirits to play with, and needing to focus on permanents prevents you from playing around with arcane cards.

Karador would be a better option.

I agree, this list likely has some issues. I hope to work some of them out as I get used to using spirits.

I'm not really trying to make the very best Muldrotha deck though, so Muldrotha may not end up singing as strong here. I'm probably not going to switch to Karador, although I appreciate the response.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 12:49 pm 
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Segrus wrote:
I do actually have a Lion's Eye Diamond. And I also know it's pretty standard Muldrotha card due to its combo capabilities. I'd been avoiding it a little, to be honest.

I don't think it would be that combo-y here. The classic move with LED is to combine it with Auriok Salvagers, if I'm not mistaken, and you literally can't do that. It would "just" be a powerful ramp effect for you, which you need, given your self-admitted mana-hungry status.

Segrus wrote:
Is Long-Forgotten Gohei good enough? I mean, half of the card will be wasted due to the lack of Arcane cards, so it's primarily a 3-cost +1/+1 blanket. Maybe there'd be a better card for that purpose? I'm honestly asking.

There probably is... but is there as flavorful an option? You could run something like Obelisk of Urd or Vanquisher's Banner... in fact, you probably SHOULD have the banner. And Kindred Discovery if you can find them, because they are both obscene in tribal lists. But I have a soft spot for on-theme effects, and the Gohei certainly fits that bill. YMMV.

Segrus wrote:
Most of the sac outlets I had set aside were creatures, but ended up cutting them to remain pure Spirit tribal.

I approve of this.

For sac outlets, consider Ashnod's Altar or Altar of Dementia for ramp and/or convenient self-mill.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-03 9:02 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I don't think it would be that combo-y here. The classic move with LED is to combine it with Auriok Salvagers, if I'm not mistaken, and you literally can't do that. It would "just" be a powerful ramp effect for you, which you need, given your self-admitted mana-hungry status.

Well, classically speaking LED was used first in Doomsday combo, which I could absolutely do in these colors by utilizing LabMan. But yes, that'll still be pretty easy to avoid. lol
I suppose I was just hesitant because...stupid reasons. I don't know. >.>

Sid the Chicken wrote:
There probably is... but is there as flavorful an option? You could run something like Obelisk of Urd or Vanquisher's Banner... in fact, you probably SHOULD have the banner. And Kindred Discovery if you can find them, because they are both obscene in tribal lists. But I have a soft spot for on-theme effects, and the Gohei certainly fits that bill. YMMV.

Kindred Discovery-->$13+
Banner-->$4.5
Good tribal cards seem to always be more than I'm expecting them to be. Both are obviously solid cards, just still seems crazy to me. Maybe once Banner moves out of Standard we'll see it drop. Ugh...but there probably isn't a more flavorful option than Gohei. I have to make spots for some of these, which is starting to get hard to do. I think I might have a copy of Gohei somewhere if I want to toss it in sometime.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
I approve of this.

For sac outlets, consider Ashnod's Altar or Altar of Dementia for ramp and/or convenient self-mill.

I think I have an extra Ashnod's Altar, so I'll set it aside along with the Greater Good and Evolutionary Leap I'm getting.

What do you think of Null Profusion in here? Feels like a lot of potential, I'm just slightly concerned about continuing to increase the average CMC.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-06 6:30 am 
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Segrus wrote:
What do you think of Null Profusion in here? Feels like a lot of potential, I'm just slightly concerned about continuing to increase the average CMC.

I'd say it's probably amazing and worth running Recycle too. (I know, probably too expensive). It's another card that Muldrotha's ability pretty much negates the drawback of, since you can play stuff out of the yard and draw cards for doing so.

Segrus wrote:
Kindred Discovery-->$13

I really hope they reprint that somewhere. The limited access to it is obviously inflating the cost.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-06 9:23 pm 
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You probably know what I'm going to say immediately- but I feel it should still be said. There are too many creatures, and not enough gas sorcery cards to help you angle yourself a whole lot. The most specific headscratcher here though is Tormod's Crypt- which imo, isn't the type of card that wants to be run (random hate cards, even ones that powerful need some kind of underlying purpose.) Like, if this deck were focused around monster turns with Ill-Gotten Gains or Living Death, Crypt and Nihil Spelbomb would make a bunch of sense here.

I think that if I were looking to build this sort of deck, I'd focus on the 3 BUG colored Kirins for buildarounds (even though the Green one really wants Well of Lost Dreams)- since they all share a funny amount of overlap in caring about resources- and honestly all want to be played with both Inames and Mindshrieker- (milling yourself is very very good.) After that, creating the right cocktail of gas cards (Mulch and co. Painful Truths, Treasure Cruise etc-) and focusing into a self-milling theme would be a good way to tighten up the screws, and then selectively adding in more value Spirits for a healthy number (would aim for around 25 tbh- but even closer to 30 is fine, but I feel like 38 is overkill.) In General, though- I find that Muldrotha decks try too hard to skimp on gassy instants and sorcerys; out of fear of not recurring them; but the strength of Muldrotha isn't in the amount of crap she can reuse, but instead the positional impact she can create through that recursion.

As always, love your deck concept. Hope you find the right blend of goodies to make this pop off and create really cool headscratchers for your group.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-07 9:35 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I'd say it's probably amazing and worth running Recycle too. (I know, probably too expensive). It's another card that Muldrotha's ability pretty much negates the drawback of, since you can play stuff out of the yard and draw cards for doing so.

I thought about Recycle, but I'm going to give Null Profusion a go first and then go from there. I've been wanting to put them both into a deck for awhile now, just hadn't found the right place until now (or, at least I'm hoping it plays out really well). So now I'm looking at finding a place for Null Profusion, Greater Good, Evolutionary Leap, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Ashnod's Altar. Speaking of...

Mr Degradation wrote:
You probably know what I'm going to say immediately- but I feel it should still be said. There are too many creatures, and not enough gas sorcery cards to help you angle yourself a whole lot. The most specific headscratcher here though is Tormod's Crypt- which imo, isn't the type of card that wants to be run (random hate cards, even ones that powerful need some kind of underlying purpose.) Like, if this deck were focused around monster turns with Ill-Gotten Gains or Living Death, Crypt and Nihil Spelbomb would make a bunch of sense here.

I think that if I were looking to build this sort of deck, I'd focus on the 3 BUG colored Kirins for buildarounds (even though the Green one really wants Well of Lost Dreams)- since they all share a funny amount of overlap in caring about resources- and honestly all want to be played with both Inames and Mindshrieker- (milling yourself is very very good.) After that, creating the right cocktail of gas cards (Mulch and co. Painful Truths, Treasure Cruise etc-) and focusing into a self-milling theme would be a good way to tighten up the screws, and then selectively adding in more value Spirits for a healthy number (would aim for around 25 tbh- but even closer to 30 is fine, but I feel like 38 is overkill.) In General, though- I find that Muldrotha decks try too hard to skimp on gassy instants and sorcerys; out of fear of not recurring them; but the strength of Muldrotha isn't in the amount of crap she can reuse, but instead the positional impact she can create through that recursion.

As always, love your deck concept. Hope you find the right blend of goodies to make this pop off and create really cool headscratchers for your group.

Yeah, so...yeah. If my opening post didn't express it enough, I have literally no idea what I'm doing. There's so many directions to go, so many facets to try out, I have analysis paralysis. I'm not at all sure what I have here is even worth the effort or if it's going to just explode at casual tables.

But overall, yes, it feels like I have too many creatures. This deck probably runs more creatures than most of my other decks, especially for a tribal deck (well...my 'Beginner' Elf deck has 39 creatures, but still). The problem is that between Kirin, Zubera, Legendary Dragons, Death Aspect Combos, sac-heavy effects for stuff like Bloodghast, and definitely other stuff...I'm just not confident in any single one of them. So I put a little bit of everything in here--thus, creature heavy. After I try out the deck I'm going to cull out some of the under-performers.

I will admit I had set aside a lot of instant and sorcery cards, including Fact or Fiction, Breakthrough, and Ideas Unbound, but I'm not sure which ones I'll like the most. The ones I currently have felt like some of the best.

When it comes to Tormod's Crypt, the thinking is simple: this deck doesn't have a ton of opponent graveyard removal, and Tormod's Crypt is a 0-cost, recurrable hate card. I'm heavily utilizing my graveyard and I don't want anybody else to enjoy that resource. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-08 2:52 am 
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Segrus wrote:
I have literally no idea what I'm doing.

I don't think any of us do, if we're being this honest ;)

I guess, if you have copies of Ill-Gotten Gains or Seasons Past-that'd be where I'd want to start focusing in on "what do" here until that gameplan becomes crystal clear. Also think Mulch, Forbidden Alchemy and Strategic Planning scale well with any of the tools you listed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-09 1:51 pm 
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So I've done some light testing, and I don't think the build as-is, is actually that bad for a casual setting. You can really go off with the right combinations of cards. That being said, it definitely has a problem with speed. I'm going to work on that with LED and some more card draw. I'm thinking Briarknit Kami is a good card to cut, even though I'd still like to enjoy the power increase on Muldrotha. And Mana Bloom probably too...I'm not sure why I thought to include it. In any case, I'm probably going to aim at cutting a few other creatures, I just don't feel like I'd ever play Mana Bloom after holding it in my hand.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 7:43 am 
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So if you're happy with the general idea, here's a couple tweaks to think about:

You've got an awful lot of opponent-discards effects. Does that jive well with wanting a casual deck? If it's something you want to keep, do you have enough graveyard hate to reasonably prevent opponent graveyard shenanigans that you might accidentally enable (like pitching reanimator targets, or setting up big dumb Mizzix Mastery turns)?

I'd go ahead and run the good Arcane cards for your colors. Yeah, you don't want too many non-permanents in a Muldrotha deck... but you still want a few. Might as well pick ones that work with the rest of your deck; Ideas Unbound, Rend Flesh, Kodama's Reach, and Horobi's Whisper are all good cards. Death Denied, Wear Away, and Rending Vines are fine too.

You already know your mana curve is whack. Pick your least favorite 6+ drops and ditch them. Font of Fertility and Wayfarer's Bauble are easy replacements. I suspect Thaumatic Compass is pretty good too (I haven't played with it much though).

If you need more high impact beaters, you might look at the spirit avatars from Shadowmoor. They're big dumb facepunchers, but this list might need some muscle to get it over the finish line.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 8:55 am 
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I'm happy with what I've got, besides needing to slowly tune it to be better and better.

I haven't updated the list here, but I've cut a couple of the discard effects. I think going into deck construction I was sure they'd be effective; however, I don't think they've been effective enough. So I'll probably keep He Who Hungers for now just due to it being a sac effect and having Soulshift.

Ideas Unbound was one I'd considered including in a pre-initial draft and I'll probably find a way to worm it back in once I feel better about the mana situation. LED is currently grabbing one spot and I'm planning on more. I'm near a tipping point on my current list with mana where sometimes I hit Loam Dweller and empty my hand for a turn four Muldrotha, and other times I'm barely getting six lands on turn 6/7. Hopefully I don't go too far down the mana path and get stuck with all mana cards.

Thank you for the input, I appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Soul Forge - BUG Spirit Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 11:42 am 
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Segrus wrote:
I'm near a tipping point on my current list with mana where sometimes I hit Loam Dweller and empty my hand for a turn four Muldrotha, and other times I'm barely getting six lands on turn 6/7. Hopefully I don't go too far down the mana path and get stuck with all mana cards.


I think mana flood/screw is a persistent and annoying problem for creature heavy decks in Commander. It's a problem you'd usually fix with cantrips/card selection, but most of those are instants and sorceries. I don't know that there's much you can do about it... Dreamborn Muse and Graveborn Muse are a bit clunky, but they might help.

The one element that hasn't gotten a look is planeswalkers. Adding just a few walkers could help smooth out your draws, and they'd give you some extra cards with Muldrotha. Both new Ashiok and new Kiora seem really good (I'm planning on adding them to my Muldrotha deck), plus they're both uncommons. New Tamiyo is probably good too, but she's gonna be expensive.

Out of the older 'walkers, Jace, Memory Adept and Kiora, Master of the Depths are very cheap and very effective for this build. Alot of Muldrotha players like Nissa, Steward of the Elements too; I don't run her, but your creature count is so high you might get a lot of mileage out of her.

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