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 Post subject: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-06 7:54 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Hello, one player in my playgroup is building a gaddock teeg deck , he wants to combine hime with Brisela, Voice of Nightmares so we are not able to cast any spells at all (his deck will be 30+ lands and the rest creatures)

I may add Nevermore and Meddling mage to counter that strategy but I really pefer not to.

I mean, both cards (mage and nevermore) are very opresive and I will be using those just for teeg, if not I wouldnt ever think about those.

What would you suggest to fight an early gadock lock? (off coursa that I will be saving the path to exile or any exile removal for any of the brisela pieces)

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-06 8:23 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
First off, it's not a true "lock". You can still cast big(ger) creatures, and a lot of them will do the trick for you. Teeg in particular will die to plenty of commonly played creatures: Skinrender, Inferno Titan, Flametongue Kavu, Ravenous Chupacabra, Massacre Wurm, Noxious Gearhulk, Admonition Angel, Luminous Primordial, etc.

Other than that, hold your removal for the damn angels. Unless your opponent is pulling some Elvish Piper or Vedalken Orrey shenanigans, you have plenty of time to respond to them before the trigger.

It also seems like this shouldn't be too much of a problem unless your opponent is explicitly tutoring for the pair every single game. It's a 3 card combo that requires at least one rather large creature.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-06 8:29 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
First off, it's not a true "lock". You can still cast big(ger) creatures, and a lot of them will do the trick for you. Teeg in particular will die to plenty of commonly played creatures:


I forgot to mention than he is building that deck because I play a creatureless one and he said "I will force you to play creatures" (quoting his words)

And yes, I will be saving the removal for the angels, I am just thinking adding or not the mage and nevermore to stop an early gadock of doing his "dont play 4cmc" things

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Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-06 11:09 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sounds like he is struggling to find a way to interact with your deck. Maybe you should both compromise and meet in the middle.

What kind of creatureless deck are you playing? There's a good chance that player finds your deck as oppressive as you will find this one.

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Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-06 12:02 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Treamayne wrote:
Sounds like he is struggling to find a way to interact with your deck. Maybe you should both compromise and meet in the middle.

What kind of creatureless deck are you playing? There's a good chance that player finds your deck as oppressive as you will find this one.


This is the deck I am building, is not the deck he played against last weekend

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/oloro-n ... 1523063102

I am adding somethings to counter Gadock and somethings are not yet tested, I dont know if sacred mesa is a good or a bad card in EDH

My deck is very interactive, all games except by one ended up at turn 15-30 , no fast combos, no massive counterwalls, no many taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 12:46 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
alexev wrote:
This is the deck I am building


OK, for starters, you can't call something with both Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond "non-combo". That's false advertising.

Secondly, that deck does look obnoxiously oppressive. Things like Spreading Plague basically say "Do you play creatures? Congrats, you don't get to play!" And you're running Solemnity, which while more niche, basically turns off some people's decks, and I have a feeling you play with someone who's deck it would turn off, otherwise, why are you running it?

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 7:28 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
alexev wrote:
This is the deck I am building


OK, for starters, you can't call something with both Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond "non-combo". That's false advertising.

Secondly, that deck does look obnoxiously oppressive. Things like Spreading Plague basically say "Do you play creatures? Congrats, you don't get to play!" And you're running Solemnity, which while more niche, basically turns off some people's decks, and I have a feeling you play with someone who's deck it would turn off, otherwise, why are you running it?


Concur

What it really sounds like is you started an "arms race" against creature decks (because you are creature-less), and you don't like their side of the escalation. Really, 7 board wipes?

The playgroup needs a sit-down (maybe mediation) to de-escalate all parties involved and go back to finding the fun.

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 11:09 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree with the above assessments. While you engage in finding the fun, I suggest checking out Uktabi Kong's post here as a useful touchstone of ideas and a direction to go toward. As someone who was also having major trouble against hard shutdown decks I find them very helpful of the direction I'd enjoy moving from there as well.

I've played against spreading plague too and I find Sid's description of it accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 11:40 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Proposed new rule*: Decks can only have 5 cards total with any number of the following words: "Can't", "Destroy all", "Exile all"

:P

Not actually a rule proposal. Duh.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 1:30 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
alexev wrote:
This is the deck I am building


OK, for starters, you can't call something with both Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond "non-combo". That's false advertising.

Secondly, that deck does look obnoxiously oppressive. Things like Spreading Plague basically say "Do you play creatures? Congrats, you don't get to play!" And you're running Solemnity, which while more niche, basically turns off some people's decks, and I have a feeling you play with someone who's deck it would turn off, otherwise, why are you running it?


The deck is not build to combo off, thats why I say is no combo, the goal is not to drop AEOT the 3 enchants and win, if it does, great but I wont hold any of the enchants.

I don-t play Solemnity to counter any of my opponents stuff, I use solemnity for Glacial chasm and delaying shield


Sid the Chicken wrote:
What it really sounds like is you started an "arms race" against creature decks (because you are creature-less), and you don't like their side of the escalation. Really, 7 board wipes?


I use to run less boardwipes, the thing is , because I am creatureless everyone elses sport was attacking me because I cant block, so because of that, I run some protection including the plague and a lot of boardwipes.

Let me tell you how the game would went 'in my mind' when I buildt my first version of this deck who had less boardwipes.

In my mind the game would go like this, I will slowly develop my board, I wont have any treaths , people wont see me as a danger and wont focus their attacks on me, I mean, they will attack me from time to time to get some damage but not focusing. but... my group saw my 50+
life total as huge advantage, and saw propaganda as -unfair- and focused me.

Then I modify the deck, add some more protection, more counters, more boardwipes and I was able to win 2 of 4 and almost a third even when I went 3v1

Now with those numbers I was able to play my game

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Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 2:12 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
alexev wrote:
I don-t play Solemnity to counter any of my opponents stuff, I use solemnity for Glacial chasm and delaying shield


OK, fair enough... but my point stands - your deck seems pretty much tuned to prevent creatures from happening, and looks pretty damn non-interactive - everything dies, can't attack you, etc, etc... not only that, but you're not using "rattlesnake" cards that discourage attacks, you're creating a situation where you should be attacked first, until dead, every game. The nature of your deck (You guys can't have your game plans, I might combo out randomly) demands that you be the target from the word go.

alexev wrote:
the goal is not to drop AEOT the 3 enchants and win


3 enchants? You realize that with Bond and Blood in play, if anyone else loses life or you gain any the game ends, right? And your general is guaranteed to make that happen on your upkeep? What third enchantment is relevant here?

alexev wrote:
I use to run less boardwipes, the thing is , because I am creatureless everyone elses sport was attacking me because I cant block, so because of that, I run some protection including the plague and a lot of boardwipes.

Now with those numbers I was able to play my game


Again, by making it so no one else can do theirs. And this is why someone wants to block your deck with Teeg. You have definitely started an arms race. If you're lucky you might be able to defuse it, but that will probably mean scrapping this deck, or at least bringing it out only rarely. You can't expect all your friends to play with you if every game ends up "we can't do anything and then we die".

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 2:31 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
alexev wrote:
I don-t play Solemnity to counter any of my opponents stuff, I use solemnity for Glacial chasm and delaying shield


OK, fair enough... but my point stands - your deck seems pretty much tuned to prevent creatures from happening, and looks pretty damn non-interactive - everything dies, can't attack you, etc, etc... not only that, but you're not using "rattlesnake" cards that discourage attacks, you're creating a situation where you should be attacked first, until dead, every game. The nature of your deck (You guys can't have your game plans, I might combo out randomly) demands that you be the target from the word go.

alexev wrote:
the goal is not to drop AEOT the 3 enchants and win


3 enchants? You realize that with Bond and Blood in play, if anyone else loses life or you gain any the game ends, right? And your general is guaranteed to make that happen on your upkeep? What third enchantment is relevant here?

alexev wrote:
I use to run less boardwipes, the thing is , because I am creatureless everyone elses sport was attacking me because I cant block, so because of that, I run some protection including the plague and a lot of boardwipes.

Now with those numbers I was able to play my game


Again, by making it so no one else can do theirs. And this is why someone wants to block your deck with Teeg. You have definitely started an arms race. If you're lucky you might be able to defuse it, but that will probably mean scrapping this deck, or at least bringing it out only rarely. You can't expect all your friends to play with you if every game ends up "we can't do anything and then we die".



It was a typo, I mean 2 enchants.

My deck is built to have everyone plays their game, if the creatures are not attacking primary to me then there is no reason whatsoever to waste a precious boardwipe, but if the 3 players attacks me every turn then I need the 'panic button' to survive.

Having more life is not a huge deal because commander damage is a real thing

The nature of my deck is not to prevent other peoples games, the goal is 'do not attack me', Let me have my board and start form there, because that wouldn't happen in real games I went a litle more cautios (more boardwipes, counters and pillowfort).

There was not a single game where I counterspell something that was not pointing against me and if it where to resolve it would be knocked me out.

There is no reason that some guy is playing Ulamog, other playing marchesa (creature tefth build) and the other playing alesha and I am the 'danger' because I have a couple of enchants that prevents people from attacking me. So because my playgroup normaly focus me first I had to build this type of 3v1.

The purpose of the topic was to know if there are some less oppressive answers for Gadock than playing meddling mage and nevermore, Now because I know the plan I added the mage and may add the nevermore, but I normally won't play those specific cards because they can sever badly the game.

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Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 5:32 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
The nature of my deck... is 'do not attack me', Let me have my board and start form there

So the aim of your deck is "You can't affect me until I win?"

Think about that for just a second. Of course people are going to build decks to try and counter that.

Your deck is not interactive, or fun to play against. So people are responding accordingly.

You have to learn that there are some strategies that people don't like, and 'pillow fort' aka "do not attack me" are one of those kinds of decks.

You did start the arms race. Your choice now is either to end it, or to accept the consequences of your choices.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 9:30 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree with that assessment. That's an antisocial deck.

Just... play some creatures. Shore up your vulnerabilities in interactive ways, not in ways that say "all of you can't do your things anymore".

You played hard shutdowns against them. Now they're playing hard shutdowns against you. Feels bad to be on the receiving end of that, right? Well, that's probably at least how bad it has been feeling for them being on the receiving end of your deck.

There's a way out of this arms race and it's to take the advice people are giving you here.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 10:09 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
The nature of my deck is not to prevent other peoples games, the goal is 'do not attack me', Let me have my board and start form there, because that wouldn't happen in real games I went a litle more cautios (more boardwipes, counters and pillowfort).


Also, this may not have been your intention, but it is clearly the nature of the deck. And with the number of tutors you are running, opponents can't count on your "intention" to only let combos develop "naturally" either.

alexev wrote:
The purpose of the topic was to know if there are some less oppressive answers for Gadock than playing meddling mage and nevermore, Now because I know the plan I added the mage and may add the nevermore, but I normally won't play those specific cards because they can sever badly the game.


Yes, the first response (Uktabi's) answered this quite clearly. The easiest and least-oppressive answers to Teeg are creatures with ETB abilities that will respond to the threat he represents.
There are also things like Vanishing and Astral slide that will allow you to temporarily remove him for your turn, but he's back to limit the other players every other turn.
You can also look at cards with effects that put permanents onto the battlefield without casting them. Though, in your case, that only helps artifacts and enchantments (not instants and sorceries)

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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