Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-16 6:41 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 4:31 pm 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
Working on an Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder decklist, planning on building on paper to use at my LGS. I love the idea of Endrek, as his ability is a force multiplier unlike any other I've seen in MTG. Up to seven creatures for the price of one is crazy, and I love it. Naturally, the deck is built around sacrificing creatures for various useful benefits. The goal is to win by controlling opponents' board states, then wearing them down through life drain and attacks, if necessary. I've playtested it a bit 1v1 with a friend on Cockatrice, but I have no idea how it will work in a group setting yet.

I've been playing Commander for about a year or so, so I'm still working on my deckbuilding strategies. I'm... sorta on a budget? I don't really have any set amount I'm working with, and I'm willing to spend 5-10 bucks on a card if it's a perfect fit for the deck, but I don't really want to spend more than much more than that, especially if there are cheaper substitutes (hence no Grave Pact when Dictate of Erebos works just fine), and I'm certainly not dropping $40 on a Phyrexian Altar or anything crazy like that.

(Sorry that these aren't categorized any better beyond card type. I'm just not sure how I'd categorize a lot of these since so many of them perform multiple functions. Would Ashnod's Altar go under sac outlets or mana acceleration?)

THE LIST:
Commander:
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder

Creatures (28):
1x Blood Artist
1x Bloodcrazed Paladin
1x Bloodflow Connoisseur
1x Bontu the Glorified
1x Butcher of Malakir (One of two creatures in here that instakills Endrek on entry. Strong effect, but not sure if worth.)
1x Champion of Stray Souls
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Desecration Elemental
1x Falkenrath Noble
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Gavony Unhallowed
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Leaden Myr
1x Magus of the Coffers
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
1x Palladium Myr
1x Phyrexian Plaguelord
1x Phyrexian Soulgorger
1x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1x Reaper from the Abyss
1x Scavenger Drake
1x Sengir Autocrat
1x Smothering Abomination
1x Viscera Seer
1x Voldaren Pariah
1x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1x Zulaport Cutthroat

Instants (6):
1x Altar's Reap
1x Costly Plunder
1x Culling the Weak
1x Dark Ritual
1x Tragic Slip
1x Withering Boon (This is basically just in there for the lols, and opponents won't likely expect it)

Sorceries (11):
1x Bone Splinters
1x Damnation
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Eliminate the Competition
1x Exsanguinate
1x Oblivion Strike
1x Reprocess
1x Ritual of the Machine
1x Soul Exchange
1x Torment of Hailfire
1x Victimize

Artifacts (10):
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Bontu's Monument
1x Caged Sun
1x Charcoal Diamond
1x Eldrazi Monument
1x Jet Medallion
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Whip of Erebos

Enchantments (8):
1x Animate Dead
1x Black Market
1x Conspiracy
1x Dark Prophecy
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Malevolent Awakening
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Vampiric Rites

Land (36):
1x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x High Market
1x Mortuary Mire
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Polluted Mire
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rogue's Passage (I think I'm going to swap this one out)
26x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Westvale Abbey

So yeah, that's the list. Along with creature sacrifice, it also includes a lot card draw, much of it fueled by creature sacrifice, plus mana acceleration to help speed it up (admittedly the curve is a bit slow at start) and make use of the card advantage it can generate. There's also a good bit of reanimate to counteract removal, bring stuff back if I decide to sac nontokens, and also grab Endrek from grave if I want to skip commander tax.

I expect lifedrain to do a lot of the work in this deck, though it has a few bombs to act as big finishers. Razaketh, the Foulblooded is monstrous in this deck and deserves special mention, despite instantly killing Endrek on cast. Tutoring for up to 8 cards at once essentially allows me to approach any given situation as I see fit. It's particularly weak to counterspells, since Endrek's trigger is on cast and he'll die anyway even if it's countered, so I'll have to be careful when I play it, but even if it doesn't land I still have 8 thrulls at my disposal, so not all will be lost.

Other big, splashy cards include the traditional black staples of Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire, plus stuff like Gray Merchant of Asphodel can also hit hard. There are a couple of very-undercosted fatties in Phyrexian Soulgorger and Desecration Elemental which are fueled pretty easily by Endrek's thrulls. I'm considering also adding Pontiff of Blight to be able to add lots of lifedrain to my spells if needed, though I'm not yet sure what I'd remove for it.

One of my main concerns with the deck is that I'm not sure it will do too well against decks that aren't extremely creature-heavy. Mono-black is notoriously bad at dealing with artifacts and enchantments (Nevinyrral's Disk is pretty much the only artifact/enchantment kill in here), and although the reanimate and mana acceleration can help it get past counterspells, I don't think it really has much of an answer to spellslingers beyond trying to kill them faster.

I may be able to fight those kinds of decks with some mass-discard effects like Nezumi Bone-Reader, Corpse Traders, Mind Slash, etc, but I don't know if that's just... too oppressive. Some of the players at my LGS run pretty strong decks, so I've considered it, but I'm not sure just how oppressive a card discard theme can get, compared to stuff like mass land destruction, which my group generally frowns upon.

Anyway, I think that's just about it. Let me know what you think. Thanks for reading!


Last edited by rpgtiger on 2017-Nov-16 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-15 8:22 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Left unchecked, Attrition can be a house.

_________________
specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-16 2:59 am 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
I actually had Attrition in an earlier version of the decklist. When I revamped it, I think it either slipped through the cracks, or I thought that the "nonblack" clause could end up screwing me over at the worst times and leave me with a dead card when playing against other decks running black.

Then again, I did include Ritual of the Machine, so I could probably slot Attrition back in.

Anyway, I printed up some proxies of the cards I didn't have, and tested this a bit at my LGS last night. It actually won both games I played, but they were both under unusual circumstances. The first was when we decided to give 3-headed giant EDH a shot, which I would not recommend, by the way, and I dropped a big Exsanguinate, which hits for triple damage in 3-man team games (and mercifully ended it before it dragged on any longer). The second time was a 1v1 against a friend of mine who's newer to EDH than I am (he understood going into it that he would probably lose), and I just waaaayyyy outpaced him. I'll try it in some hopefully more-normal circumstances later this week.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-16 10:54 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I play Attrition in Ghave, Guru of Spores and I will admit that sometimes it is a dead draw. However, there are also times when you get to machine gun your opponents' critters and steal the game.

_________________
specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-21 4:34 am 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
A few things I've gleaned from playtesting:

I'm pretty sure I need more ways of token generation outside of Endrek. The deck is predicated on sacrificing tokens, but other than Endrek and Sengir Autocrat it doesn't have a ton of other ways of generating them. If Endrek gets hated out it can be hard for the deck to do much. Bitterblossom would be perfect for this deck, but it's out of my price range (Curse you, modern players!!). Looking at Gatherer, there are a number of intriguing options for this sort of thing, which I'll have to think over as I rework this thing.

The other main issue is artifacts and enchantments. My initial worries were correct in that this deck just cannot deal with artifacts and enchantments. Like, at all. And it can easily lose games because of this. The only idea I might have on how to fix this would be to add the discard effects I was considering in the original post (Nezumi Bone-Reader, Mind Slash, Corpse Traders, Cabal Therapy, etc.) and try to hate out any dangerous non-creatures before they even hit field. But are there any alternatives to this in black? I feel like keeping repeatable discard effects out would make me a pretty big target, and in MP games I doubt I'd have enough juice to deny everyone's hands.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-21 7:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
rpgtiger wrote:
A few things I've gleaned from playtesting:

I'm pretty sure I need more ways of token generation outside of Endrek. The deck is predicated on sacrificing tokens, but other than Endrek and Sengir Autocrat it doesn't have a ton of other ways of generating them. If Endrek gets hated out it can be hard for the deck to do much. Bitterblossom would be perfect for this deck, but it's out of my price range (Curse you, modern players!!). Looking at Gatherer, there are a number of intriguing options for this sort of thing, which I'll have to think over as I rework this thing.


Black has a few ways to repeatedly create zombies. Here's some: https://scryfall.com/search?q=f%3Acomma ... +o%3Atoken

For example, there's...
Grave Titan
Curse of Disturbance
Captain's Claws (not zombies. probably.)
Curse of Shallow Graves
Liliana's Reaver
Moonsilver Spear (angels!)
Noosegraf Mob
Overseer of the Damned

There's also all the spells that just outright create a bunch of zombies for you. That was just the list of creatures that have a "whenever" in their text so you have ongoing access to creature fuel.

Special mention is Ghoulcaller Gisa who will take tokens you have with power>1 and multiply them. This may be useful for some of your purposes, and is another commander I've seen people use for mono-black token decks.

rpgtiger wrote:
The other main issue is artifacts and enchantments. My initial worries were correct in that this deck just cannot deal with artifacts and enchantments. Like, at all. And it can easily lose games because of this. The only idea I might have on how to fix this would be to add the discard effects I was considering in the original post (Nezumi Bone-Reader, Mind Slash, Corpse Traders, Cabal Therapy, etc.) and try to hate out any dangerous non-creatures before they even hit field. But are there any alternatives to this in black? I feel like keeping repeatable discard effects out would make me a pretty big target, and in MP games I doubt I'd have enough juice to deny everyone's hands.

As far as I understand it, that's just Black's thing. They don't deal with artifacts and enchantments, in exchange for being able to deal extremely well with creatures.

Checking through some of the black destroy/exile options we get two kinds of options: https://scryfall.com/search?q=f%3Acomma ... rmanent%29

Destroy all the nonlands, which sit there threateningly to be used whenever the situation just becomes untenable for you (you lose all your creatures, but you'll be happier afterwards):
Ratchet Bomb
Perilous Vault
Nevinyrral's Disk

Or the 7-mana colorless destruction spells:
Scour from Existence
Spine of Ish Sah (sacrifice it later to get it back, if you can sacrifice non-creatures)
Unstable Obelisk
Universal Solvent

Alternately, you can force players to sacrifice permanents: https://scryfall.com/search?q=f%3Acomma ... antment%29

You don't get to pick which permanents, but hopefully if you make them do this enough, it might be some of the things pinning you down:
Choice of Damnations :twisted:
Curse of the Cabal
Torment of Hailfire
Torment of Scarabs
Undercity Plague

If you can sacrifice your own enchantments, you can use some of these as bargaining chips saying "sacrifice that stuff you put down that's giving me a hard time, and I'll sacrifice this and stop giving you a hard time."

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-22 2:57 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-16 6:59 am
Age: Drake
Location: Freemont, NE (Omaha area) USA
Go here for more really good ideas:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12196

Squirrely and others spent a bunch of time on this idea. I think you will find it well worth the read. You are already on the right track.

_________________
My youngest son got me addicted to this game - It's all his fault!
Too much is never enough - I'm addicted to MORE!
Reality is for those who can't deal with Middle Earth.
Shoes for Industry!


Last edited by syssc9 on 2017-Nov-22 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-22 3:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
Assault Suit + creatures = Profit.

Just mentioning this for casual passersby, you don't have to donate with Assault Suit ;)

EDIT: I know you wanted to talk about sac outlets, but why sac Endrek if you don't need to?

_________________
My decks on Tappedout.net


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-23 2:43 pm 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
Thanks for the inputs, all.

spacemonaut - Yeah, I had been looking at a lot of those token generators. There's some pretty good stuff available. And thanks for the help with the artifacts and enchantment stuff, too.

syssc9 - Wow, that's actually a really good thread. Thanks for pointing me towards that.'

And Superstrength, wow I didn't know about Assault Suit, that's hilarious.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-17 2:37 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
Yeah, I *think* I picked up a set of Assault Suit a few months ago, because it's going to be a new staple for me. So many sac effects in the game, that's it's just worth it to protect your Commander with.

_________________
My decks on Tappedout.net


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-17 5:48 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
FYI, Endrek Sahr and Assault Suit will draw the game if you don't have a way to get rid of one of them or some of the thrulls.

_________________
Sygg, River Cutthroat: Ninjas, Rogues, Ophidians
Rosheen Meanderer: Hydras
Sapling of Colfenor: Toughness > Power
Riku: Pump Spells
Teneb: Life Manipulation
Kiki-Jiki: Big Red
Geth: Nim
Kodama of the North Tree: Hard Mode Voltron
Nin: Elementals
Sram: Jankstorm
Zur: Zombies
Rhys the Redeemed: Aura Voltron
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh: Chandras
Ojutai, Soul of Winter: Tap Out Control
Alesha: Allies
Inalla: Treasures
Vial Smasher: Lava Axes
Atraxa: Counterless Keywords
Ludevic and Tymna: Curses


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Endrek Sahr Sac Outlets - thoughts?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-21 4:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Coco is correct. Endrek Sahr's ability is a state trigger. This means that it triggers as soon as the condition is true. It won't trigger again while the ability is on the stack, but it will trigger again as soon as the ability resolves and Endrek Sahr fails to be sacrificed. So the game will never progress, because all it can do is attempt to make you sac Endrek and fail. If you want to keep Endrek, it's much better to go the Conspiracy route, which I see is already on the list (and in pretty much every Endrek list ever, because duh).

As far as the list goes, my only question is "Why no Grave Pact?"... I mean, you've got the Butcher and the Dictate, so why not go for the trifecta? It's an absurdly powerful ability in a deck like this.

Have you thought about Greater Harvester? Not a sac outlet per se, but seems to fit the theme.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: