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 Post subject: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-09 5:39 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What cards and strategies are effective vs. Edric? Let's keep this open to all colors, but i have Mimeoplasm, Leovold, Oloro (becoming Atraxa), Derevi, 5c Hermit Druid, and Mishra as my powered try-hard decks. I mostly am focusing on Leovold, i think, since he has built in resistance vs Edric.

Every card i have in Leovold right now that interacts with Edric in some way are:
Disfigure
Vendetta
Beast Within
Pernicious Deed
Notion Thief
Chains of Mephistopheles
Murderous Cut
Go for the Throat

Stuff i'm about to add or thought about adding:
Decree of Pain - costs 5... ugh
Sudden Death
Ulcerate
Dismember
Abrupt Decay
Nature's Ruin
Perish
Toxic Deluge
Massacre - more like a SB card for when there's a white player as well.
Spike Weaver - Not sure if i want to pay 5 for a fog, even though i can sometimes do it twice. It also seems fine anyway, since Leovold eats every attack once you reduce everyone's hands to 0-1 cards.
Engineered Explosives - I like Deed more but this seems good. I don't think card]Ratchet Bomb[/card] and Powder Keg are good enough, though (+ no tokens in meta)
Necroplasm - dumb and hilarious.
Arachnogenesis - actually seems legit
Forbidden orchard - this can literally be a land that just taps for 5c and stops Edric from drawing a card
Sudden Spoiling
Arcane Laboratory
Summary Dismissal

I was thinking Propaganda is no good. Edric can attack someone other than i, until they have the removal and countermagic to make Prop go away.

Pongify and the lizard version are no-go's for sure.

Perhaps some type of repeatable fog effect? Constant Mists and Moment's Peace? Spore Cloud and Tangle kind of works for two turns. The problem with fog effects is that they could be removal for Edric or the cheap wipes, so basically never any space right? Though Leovold does draw attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-09 7:24 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
What cards and strategies are effective vs. Edric? Let's keep this open to all colors, but I have Mimeoplasm, Leovold, Oloro (becoming Atraxa), Derevi, 5c Hermit Druid, and Mishra, as my powered try-hard decks. I mostly am focusing on Leovold, i think, since he has built in resistance vs Edric.


What is there to counter? You haven't really given any context to what you are trying to achieve. Edric is one card in 100 (granted, the Commander, but still one card doesn't make a deck). I have an Edric Rogue tribal, is that what you are trying to "counter?"

Is this 1:1, 4 player, something else? What kind of Meta? What type of Edric deck (all unblockables, pillowfort, control)? Is it the political nature of his ability that's the problem in your meta?

It's hard to weigh in on the options or provide new ones without more context.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-09 8:04 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Counter his ability to draw 5 cards per turn and have more countermagic than anyone, as my card selection implies, of course. Sorry, i thought it was implied it was standard fair. Is Edric pillowfort a thing?
Free for all Commander, like this forum is for.
Competitive as implied by the nature of decks i listed i play against it with.
There's no problem with the meta (except the mix of competitive decks and casual decks, players with little threat assessment and limited interaction), the problem is i want to beat the deck more consistently.

It's pretty much your tier 1 utility/tempo creature swarm with lots of counterspells.
There is also Static orb, Winter Orb, and Opposition which i think is also generally included for the aggro control.

Sorry if i was unclear. Really just talking about the ability and some of the things it lends itself to.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-10 4:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No worries, it's just that I wouldn't recommend the same cards for an Edric-"Unblockables" in a 4 player meta as I would for an Edric - "Stax Control" 6 player meta (which seems to be what you are facing).

Quick search turns up things like:

General anti-Edric:
Blade of Selves (and other Myriad - Get more value from Edric than the Edric Player)
Finest Hour, Aurelia, etc (extra combat steps - more Edric value)
Sigil of Sleep (etc. - on any Tim, returns Edric mid combat to prevent draw)
Powerstone Minefield
Phyrexian Splicer (Steal evasion)

General Anti-Control:
Cavern of Souls, Boseiju (be uncounterable, when needed)
Echo Mage, Dual Casting (and other, when a spell is being countered, copy it)
Turnabout, Mind over Matter, Glare of Subdual (etc. - tap the Stax cards before your turn so you untap as normal)
Curse of Inertia (etc. - re-tap stax cards so the Edric player does not untap as normal)
Jester's Cap, Sadistic Sacrrament (etc. - exile the control elements)
Hidden Strings
Raking Canopy (if they are using flying - or "give" flying with Predator, Flagship or other)
Curse of Echoes (Copy his counters)
Gravity Well (Stop mass flying evasion)

Griefer:
Mana Web
Price of Glory
Shimmer
Tectonic Instability
Teferi's Curse
War's Toll

Theft:
Identity Thief (and other flicker)
Oblivion Ring
Gather Specimens (steal the flickered creatures when they return EOT)
Merieke (with untap shenanigans)

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Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-10 7:08 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Guul Draz Assassin - comes down turn 1, level him up once and you have an endless Edric killer.
Silent Arbiter - Thou shalt not swarm.
Spirit of the Labyrinth - Thou shalt not draw extra cards.
Spike Weaver - Thou shalt not deal combat damage.
Elesh Norn / Ascendant Evincar - Expensive but maybe with a reanimator plan? If the Edric player is relying on a swarm of weenies, these might lock him off the board. See also: Massacre Wurm.
Meishin, the Mind Cage - Again, expensive, but potential to just shut his stuff the hell down.
City of Solitude / Grand Abolisher / Dosan the Falling Leaf / Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - Give yourself some peace from their wanton meddling.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-10 8:03 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The hardest part I've always found when it comes to beating edric is beating the mentality of the other players. The bonus of drawing cards when you leave edric alone is too much of an incentive for people... until it's too late. So you have to get in people's ear early and remind them that Edric WANTS you to attack other people while he quietly builds advantage, hit him now and make him spend those resources.

Perhaps you make a deal with each other to let one small attacker through each combat but everything of consequence goes at the edric pilot to keep him off balance. Edric's ability is political, so use politics to fight it.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-10 12:18 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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specter404 wrote:
The hardest part I've always found when it comes to beating edric is beating the mentality of the other players.

Well, it doesn't help that Edric also lends itself to strategies which almost play themselves with him in charge. It's really easy to swarm the board and refill your hand with impunity, well before many control decks can get a foothold.

In addition to the Spike Weaver suggestion, Constant Mists is another good option there. Having played competitive Edric, consistent fog really screws with the game plan. Another good option is to just have more spot removal. Without Edric on the field, the deck is normally a weak aggro/stax deck. It'll take two or three kills before Edric isn't able to recover, but it can work.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-10 12:39 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
Edric - "Stax Control" 6 player meta (which seems to be what you are facing).
Not 6 players or stax, Winter Orb is just good in any deck that needs only 2 lands to operate. Opposition is just awesome in creature swarm, and both Orbs are one-sided with it.


Blade of Selves - this costs so much. if you have 3 opponents and one is Edric, you have only 2 players who you can get a draw trigger from, and one of them you are presumably able to attack with the original anyway (and if not, it doesn't matter because the copy won't do anything either). This can sometimes draw 1 extra card.
Finest Hour - you have to attack with just one creature for the extra combat. So this possibly makes a single creature attack once more, which equals 1 extra card per turn. I say possibly because that creature has to have an opening to live in order to attack the second time.
Aurelia - i do like Aurelia and have her as a deck but 6 mana is enormous vs very fast creature swarm and card draw.

Aurelia and the above don't really counter Edric much at all, it's just using him on the field as an advantage, which requires you to attack other players and Edric himself less frequently, and you still won't draw as many cards as he can.

Sigil of Sleep - this is the kind of stuff i like, to be able to repeatedly keep him off. Too bad sigil requires Sorcerer, it's such a narrow combo and i don't think either work terribly well without a deck that's designed to use one or the other without the combo.
Powerstone Minefield - yea! love this and Lightmine Field. Sadly any deck with RW is going to have some small creatures as well probably. Needs to fit into some kind of battlecruiser.
Phyrexian Splicer - seems like an investment to play this just to nab flying off a creature to stop him from drawing one card. The other 3 abilities are scarcely relevant in UG, except trample, which is irrelevant in weenie decks. For reference, i think maybe only 4 creatures have power 3 or greater.

General Anti-Control:
Curse of Inertia - this only happens in combat and Opposition can be used at any time, so you can't re-un-tap the Orb because they will do the tap effect in end step.
Jester's Cap, Sadistic Sacrament - i like these vs combo decks, Edric is just redundancy and a lot of decks ought to contain some.
Curse of Echoes - never thought of this card like that, that's awesome, but it costs a lot of mana.

Griefer:
War's Toll - love it
Tectonic Instability - love it
Mana Web - love it
Price of Glory - love it. these 4 are going into Saskia probably. Many decks, but especially blue, want to leave open mana if possible. so it takes a certain build to leverage.
Shimmer - Seems sketchy because you could be playing those colors, and Edric can run off such little mana. Probably piss off others, too.
Teferi's Curse - this is actually cool, but Song of the Dryads[card], [card]Lignify and Imprisoned in the Moon are probably all superior.

Theft:
Identity Thief - this is pretty cool but terribly slow and Edric can be recast. It does increase commander tax on the replacement, though.
Oblivion Ring - What does this do for theft?
Gather Specimens - 6 mana makes this awful, though. Once you have 6 mana, the Edric player doesn't need Edric anymore. They'll just have the 7 best cards in their deck (which probably also draw cards in some way too)
Merieke - always a machine gun with Freed from the Real


About to leave for my weekly commander tournament and face Edric, i'd love to respond to other posters though. Thank you everyone for posting, normally my threads don't get any traction but this is something i've really been trying to solve.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-11 3:01 am 

Joined: 2015-Feb-10 3:10 am
Age: Drake
Correct me if I'm wrong ... but I seem to remember something - sneaky about Blade of Selves ...

I think you could net yourself up to four extra cards per turn with Blade of Selves + Finest Hour. If I recall correctly ... the myriad creatures don't count as part of a "when creature attacks" trigger. I thought it would make for some cool shenanigans with Utvara Hellkite but it was pointed out to me that wouldn't work ... because the myriad tokens never attacked ... they came into existence already attacking.

So ... roll with me here for a moment ... Blade of Selves on creature X attacks hitting up to 3 opponents and triggering Finest Hour (because the creature attacked alone, but then his buddies showed up). Then you get an extra combat phase to again attack with the Blade of Selves'd creature ... plus whatever else you have left to turn sideways.

I think I'm getting this right ...

Creature attacks Finest Hour and myriad triggers go on the stack. Since it is the first combat (and the creature attacked alone) Finest Hour resolves and you can choose to put whatever myriad tokens into play you would like, resolving the myriad trigger (since it's a may).

Or I'm completely off base ... which has been known to happen. Even if I'm right that might not be strong enough shenagary to include them.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-11 3:55 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It works that way. It was why both were on my list. He asked only for ideas (not filtered by color or deck type). Exalted decks are a type Edric has problems with.I have Gemini Engine in my exalted deck, and he'll pump from all the triggers then make his token that copies his buffed P/T.

Quote:
Blade of Selves - this costs so much. if you have 3 opponents and one is Edric, you have only 2 players who you can get a draw trigger from, and one of them you are presumably able to attack with the original anyway (and if not, it doesn't matter because the copy won't do anything either). This can sometimes draw 1 extra card.
Finest Hour - you have to attack with just one creature for the extra combat. So this possibly makes a single creature attack once more, which equals 1 extra card per turn. I say possibly because that creature has to have an opening to live in order to attack the second time.


Myriad, in general, helps you get more resources from Edric when fighting him and since the Myriad are token copies (rather than GE's Power = power, etc) you can attack Edric with, for example, a 15/15 flying, first strike, lifelink, trample Knotvine Paladin and each other opponent will only have a 2/2 Paladin token (that had no attack triggers) coming their way. If you have politicked correctly, you'll draw X-1 (X=#of Opp) and Edric will eat the huge attack while everyone else basically gets Shocked. So, yes. In a four player game you could have just attacked each individually. But as deck ideas that work against Edric, a deck that can swing buffed at his face and still, also, draw cards off his own ability is one I have seen many Edric decks falter against.

(Either attacking him for one superbuff, then attacking in general on the additional combat to get some cards; or using myriad to get double cards with only one attacking creature each combat. In case that wasn't clear.)

Also, if you really are in such a competitive meta, it bears noting that Exalted is one of the Voltron decks that can routinely get a General damage kill turn 5 or 6 (faster with God hands, of course).

Quote:
Jester's Cap, Sadistic Sacrament - I like these vs combo decks, Edric is just redundancy and a lot of decks ought to contain some.


How many redundancies are there for the orbs and Opposition?

Quote:
Sigil of Sleep - this is the kind of stuff I like, to be able to repeatedly keep him off. Too bad sigil requires Sorcerer, it's such a narrow combo and I don't think either work terribly well without a deck that's designed to use one or the other without the combo.


I think you are thinking too narrow here. Again, it was just a collection of card ideas for you to consider when thinking about Generals and Strategies (which is also why it was a representative list, rather than an exhaustive one). I used "Tim" in the generic of "creature dealing one damage." Imagine an Enchantress deck (which can usually out draw Edric) or Sigil of Sleep on Stuffy Doll (best case every opponent keeps attacking into it and bounces Edric's Things; worst case stuffy self-pings and you bounce something every turn cycle). Just an example, as there are many other options to enchant (Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, etc)

I won't go through the whole list, just reiterate that the list I provided was food for though. very few cards were meant to be evaluated on a card-by-card basis. They were meant to inspire ideas of Generals, Colors and deck types that can work very well against Edric. Every card on the list has either been used by me against Edric, with success, or used against my Edric (Rogue Tribal, granted, not the most powerful version) deck, with success.

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Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-11 5:06 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
I'm not sure how creative you have to get outside of a larger threshold of removal/disruption. In a competitive environment, cute/niche answers are only going to hurt you versus other lists, whereas removal is fairly universal.

Just make sure to fetch out your Arcane Lighthouse.

The fastest way to counter Edric is to kill him each time he hits the table.

Secondary is to focus on your own sources of card advantage and counter magic sweet and just fight fire with fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-12 8:32 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks Treamayne, i get you.

Sid the Chicken:
Guul Draz Assassin - well, you mean level him up twice. But that's the kind of assassin i like
Silent Arbiter - Also Dueling Grounds and sort of Stoic Angel
Elesh Norn - this is always a reanimator allstar
Meishin, the Mind Cage - yea, the mana requirements here probably mean you need to be on a control deck that stabilizes quickly.
City of Solitude / Grand Abolisher / Dosan the Falling Leaf / Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - and Defense Grid


specter404 wrote:
The hardest part I've always found when it comes to beating edric is beating the mentality of the other players. The bonus of drawing cards when you leave edric alone is too much of an incentive for people... until it's too late. So you have to get in people's ear early and remind them that Edric WANTS you to attack other people while he quietly builds advantage, hit him now and make him spend those resources.

Perhaps you make a deal with each other to let one small attacker through each combat but everything of consequence goes at the edric pilot to keep him off balance. Edric's ability is political, so use politics to fight it.

Yea, this is what i mentioned before. The top players understand this but it's about half and half top competitive players and people with weaker or slower decks or playing for fun.

Segrus wrote:
It's really easy to swarm the board and refill your hand with impunity, well before many control decks can get a foothold.

This is exactly it. I run "bad" spot removal for certain commanders

Segrus"In addition to the Spike Weaver suggestion, Constant Mists is another good option there.[/quote]
Totally, it's just that Mists is so rough for a deck that wants to play a longer game, and you have to be able to get it through vs counterspell.dec or it ends up in the yard with a failed buyback.

[quote="AutoXCivic wrote:
So Blade of Selves on creature X attacks hitting up to 3 opponents and triggering Finest Hour

Extra combats and Myriad is totally a go. Two triggers, double the tokens.
With Finest Hour specifically, though, unlike other extra combats, your myriad tokens will be untapped for the second combat.

GoodbyeWorld wrote:
I'm not sure how creative you have to get outside of a larger threshold of removal/disruption. In a competitive environment, cute/niche answers are only going to hurt you versus other lists, whereas removal is fairly universal.

Just make sure to fetch out your Arcane Lighthouse.

Exactly it. I mostly think i need spot removal. Supreme Verdict is fine in those colors but mostly needing quick answers.

Niche answers are sometimes fine, if they are especially potent. Universal answers of course always win out.


Anything that kills weenies for free or one mana is awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-12 7:00 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Anything that kills weenies for free or one mana is awesome.


You can always put things like Thornbite Staff on Glissa, the Traitor, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim or another Deathtouch General.

Token deck with Attrition.

Death Pits of Rath has a lot of options (I love it with Hecatomb)

Odric, Master Tactician has options.

Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile too.

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-13 12:00 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
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 Post subject: Re: Countering Edric
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-14 11:22 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
never mind... I hadn't read my suggestion in a while, I forgot it targeted.

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