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 Post subject: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 9:02 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Several people at my FLGS have tried (and failed) to build any semblance of a fair Narset deck. Any "fun-seeming" options are proven to be a bit too advantageous when cast three-at-a-time-for-free. It would likely be easier to type up a list of things that aren't busted in half with her. "Free" is too often equivalent to "broken."

That said, I'm always looking for something new to try.

Has anyone pieced together a 'fair' version of the lady with the spear?

A couple of trains of thought:

Big Enchantments:
These are the giant enchantments that are always "too expensive to consider casting."

Mind's Dilation
Dismiss into Dream
Gleam of Battle
Rage Reflection
Vicious Shadows
et. al.


Getting any of those onto the battlefield for free is the effect I would want, but would opponent see them as 'absurd Narset advantage?'

Artifacts:


These aren't as egregious as the "giant uncastable enchantments" are but border on the same design space that most artifact decks seem to tread on. (I expect a bunch of next week's "noncreature" Breya Decks).

Equipment/Enchantress:

6-mana isn't really the "sweet spot" for a voltron general, even when it's getting it's next sword for free. And it's kind of a played-out trope in our local games, at least. There's got to be a more interesting method here.

Instant/Sorcery Creature Tokens:

This is something I think has a bit of promise. "Swing for three and cast Nomads' Assembly" (or Conqueror's Pledge or Clone Legion or whatever) might be a bit closer to 'fair' while still generating advantage. Is there enough support to really go in on this as my Plan A?

Obviously I can combine a few of those strategies. Does anything really strike as an AVOID AT ALL COSTS level besides extra turns/combat steps, mass land destruction, or planeswalkers?

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 10:09 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Jeyal wrote:
Has anyone pieced together a 'fair' version of the lady with the spear?

Yes!

Here is my deck. Sorry there is no description or sorting of cards into categories.

The idea behind the deck is that it's graveyard shenanigans in the colors least suited to do so. Dragon Breath and company work really nicely with Narset, and Wild Research works nicely with the Dragon auras, as well as being pretty good with flashback and/or madness.

It is not a highly tuned, competitive deck, but it has lots of card draw and removal and Starfield of Nyx can be a powerful finisher if you can protect it. And Narset can definitely get in for 21 damage, or you can attack with a bunch of flying tokens with Jeskai Ascendancy.


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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 3:02 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I suppose you could build a prowess deck?

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 4:51 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I suppose you could build a prowess deck?


I thought of that, but to really worth it, the deck would be nearly strictly instants, using Narset swings for "storm count" with mid-combat prowess triggers. I guess you could fling things afterward? Are there any prowess critters besides Monastery Mentor that "stand on their own"?

I like the Wild Research and Starfield of Nyx interaction, that's pretty sweet, actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 10:09 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Not sure of there's still an alternate strategy for Narset where she's not awkwardly shoe horned in, apart from big enchantments/artifects, extra turns/combat, voltron and planeswalkers. I guess you could go for far fetched strategies like human tribal or something, but then she's just a random commander with some mid to late game advantages.

I had a Narset Superfriends-proliferate deck, with some attack-discouraging enchantment backup. Not all out on planeswalkers, but still enough to consistently be able to drop one every two turns or so.

It was fun and worked quite well, but hard to not let it denegerate into an obnoxious pillow fort deck. When I feel I can't make the strongest possible built for a deck because I have to keep it from getting too strong for my group, I get frustrated quickly with that deck.

Also, my play group has kind of an irrational hatred of planeswalkers, I usually became somewhat of an arch enemy as soon as I had three 'walkers out, even if I'm just using them to scry and create 1/1 tokens or something.

Don't have a deck list...


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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 10:57 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Nigerian Prince wrote:
my play group has kind of an irrational hatred of planeswalkers

To be fair, they do tend to do ridiculous things if you leave them alone for very long. It's hard to play innocent with an Elspeth, Knight-Errant at 9 loyalty by saying "All I'm doing is making 1/1 tokens with her!"

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 11:40 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I have the remnants of a Token deck headed by Narset somewhere. It was kind of fun but it got hated on anyway because people don't trust Narset and, let's face it, free stuff is still free stuff. I eventually got sidetracked into other decks and canabalised her for lands, wraths and planeswalkers.

If you do decide to go that route, one of the more fun cards in the deck was Proteus Staff which, apart from being bonkers broken if your build is creaturless, is a repeatable Mystical Tutor (ok, it technically allows you to stack your entire deck but I found that people hated less if I "stacked" a single card and randomised everything underneath.)

Ok, maybe I know why the deck got hated on. Don't play Proteus Staff.

I also had fun with stuff like Mana Severance & Selective Memory to ensure Narset's trigger hit more often and it rarely blew up in my face.

No extra turn stuff, people hate that.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 11:57 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I suppose you could build a prowess deck?

Been there, done that. It SUCKS. It's fair, yeah, but it also just really blows. There are a couple of Prowess cards I still use, but focusing on that mechanic is not the way to go if you still want to win games.

Anyway, here's my current list and it's pretty fair. It's definitely one of my stronger decks, but it only very rarely has games that seem downright unfair. Often the early game is a real struggle for me as I have to balance defending myself from early threats with trying to just set up for Narset to come down. The mid-game can also be a bit dicey. It's only if and when I make it to the late game that I start to become a big favorite to win.

Some games I cast Narset once, she immediately dies to a wrath, then I spend the rest of the game just playing Jeskai control waiting for an opportunity to cast her again.

One time, I cast her as soon as I hit 6 mana, swung the next turn, and wound up hitting Cathar's Crusade and Storm Herd. No on had a wrath so... yeah, anyway, that was the most unfair thing I've ever done.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-04 12:04 am 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
my play group has kind of an irrational hatred of planeswalkers

To be fair, they do tend to do ridiculous things if you leave them alone for very long. It's hard to play innocent with an Elspeth, Knight-Errant at 9 loyalty by saying "All I'm doing is making 1/1 tokens with her!"


True, I guess opponents assume I have tricks up my sleeve to tick up loyalty counters by surprise. I have been the receiving end of all out attacks and mass one sided removal because I had a Jace Beleren with 3 counters or a SoM Elspeth with 2, however. Seemed a bit of an overreaction.

I think it's a remnant of the early Lorwyn-Alara days, when most of us didn't have any walkers and their power level perception was greatly distorted.


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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-05 7:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
I feel like I have a fair Narset deck, but it's probably just underpowered in a few ways. It's a theme deck with Narset starring as Harley Quinn. So it's a Voltron build with lots of hammers (including a sort of Sunforger package), some joke cards, a few combat tricks, and Bludgeon Brawl stuff. If it gets enough mana ramp too quickly then it can get silly, but generally it has applied pressure on the right turns.

I don't know, it's a difficult problem to solve. Even my deck isn't going to be great for every group.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-05 3:51 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Monk Tribal


'nuff said.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-06 3:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Treamayne wrote:
Monk Tribal


'nuff said.


Biggest issue with Narset is her exiling your creature cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-06 5:39 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
zimagic wrote:
Treamayne wrote:
Biggest issue with Narset is her exiling your creature cards.
Also there are 2 other legendary Monks in those colors to choose from. Maybe Zedruu doesn't make such a good commander for that strategy, but Shu Yun sure seems a lot better than Narset for Monk Tribal.


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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-07 6:46 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
First draft. Not a decklist. No land-base yet (besides Hanweir Battlements and likely Windbrisk Heights).








Main question: Should I abandon the Salvaging Station package and replace it with something more functional/less 'cute'? I could easily replace all of the little artifacts with things like draw spells and early-game removal, I suppose. There will have to be cards cut, I'm just kind of in the "write things down to see how they look on paper" stage. Anything glaring come to mind?

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Current Deck-building Project(s):

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Building $15-25 "Intro to Commander" Decks for my Local LGS


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 Post subject: Re: Theorycrafting: Fair Narset
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 6:24 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
thaumaturge wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I suppose you could build a prowess deck?

Been there, done that. It SUCKS. It's fair, yeah, but it also just really blows. There are a couple of Prowess cards I still use, but focusing on that mechanic is not the way to go if you still want to win games.


Can you give some reasoning why you think it sucks? I play a prowess narset with something like 60-70% win rate. I play bunch of cheap spells (eg gods willing, ponder, izzet signet...) with cheap creatures (eg.Monastery swiftspear, jhessian thief...) and it creates a very potent combo. With lock pieces like possibility storm you basically can't lose.


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