Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-21 6:19 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 3:28 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Hello ladies and Gentlemen, I am here to let you in on the most evil combination to be available within commander and modern since SOI introduced the investigate mechanic. While somewhat at wizards may not have not been paying attention or simply dropped ball, but we now have a way in Dmir and Sultai colors to essentially generate virtually countless turns. Here it is:

Image

_________________
Image

RaiRai's Decks of Otherworldlyness:

Unknown Horizons
Bane of the Vast 1.0
Call from Eternity
Twisted Nightmares


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 6:12 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is not new. Thopter Assembly is a thing. I also use Sharding Sphinx and Myr Battlesphere.

Hardly dropping the ball. They don't balance new cards for combos with other cards from years ago.

Generating 5 clues per turn is obnoxious though. I wouldnt be upset about losing to something so convoluted but i might be upset playing against the style of deck that has to bide time until they can do so.

Doesnt seem efficient at a glance, and even less so evil.

Modern has Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek and would never use clues. (Both because clues are bad and you dont need infinite turns with Thopter-Sword)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-30 5:08 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
I don't really see how you are going to create 5+ clues per turn.

Tamiyo's Journal and Magnifying Glass are the only cards that generate clues without outside help. All the other cards are either single use or require other cards to help (eg. tireless tracker needs lands). You also have Erdwal Illuminator which is a crap card.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 2:19 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
I don't really see how you are going to create 5+ clues per turn.

Tamiyo's Journal and Magnifying Glass are the only cards that generate clues without outside help. All the other cards are either single use or require other cards to help (eg. tireless tracker needs lands). You also have Erdwal Illuminator which is a crap card.


Doubling Season? Parallel Lives? Second Harvest? Copied? Probably the "fairest" abuse of Doubling Season.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 7:37 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
I hope you realize that even with Doubling Season, Tamiyo's Journal and Erdwal Illuminator you still only get 4 clues per turn. And if somebody destroys the journal you get nothing.

So to combo off you need 5 cards for a total mana cost of 18 mana and you need to wait for your next upkeep. If any of the pieces gets destroyed to combo breaks apart you also need to only stifle one trigger to delay the combo for a whole turn.

Sure the journal can tutor the rest of the pieces but if you only have the journal the earliest you can combo off without ramp/lucky draws is on turn 13. I think maze's end wins on turn 14 with the same setup but it doesn't require 5 mana (only three mana + maze's end) to start and it doesn't rely on a 1/3 creature to survive.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 7:50 am 

Joined: 2015-Feb-10 3:10 am
Age: Drake
illuknisaa wrote:
I hope you realize that even with Doubling Season, Tamiyo's Journal and Erdwal Illuminator you still only get 4 clues per turn. And if somebody destroys the journal you get nothing.

So to combo off you need 5 cards for a total mana cost of 18 mana and you need to wait for your next upkeep. If any of the pieces gets destroyed to combo breaks apart you also need to only stifle one trigger to delay the combo for a whole turn.

Sure the journal can tutor the rest of the pieces but if you only have the journal the earliest you can combo off without ramp/lucky draws is on turn 13. I think maze's end wins on turn 14 with the same setup but it doesn't require 5 mana (only two mana + maze's end) to start and it doesn't rely on a 1/3 creature to survive.


It's not as bad as all that. There are other enablers/effects.

Strionic Resonator can get you more clues
Trail of Evidence I mean we're using blue ... lets get our spell slinging on
Confirm Suspicions - Expensive ... but three clues

As long as we're throwing green in there
Ongoing Investigation - a couple of ways to get clues
Ulvenwald Mysteries - goes pretty well with the investigation

and ... since green likes to ramp Tireless Tracker

And if we throw Doubling Season and/or Parallel Lives in there we can up the counts pretty well.

And as long as we're committed to this whole clue thing and stringing infinite turns together by sacing them ... Fleeting Memories can be a wincon.

Granted it's still not terribly efficient, but there's some more things in there. Also black contributes nothing to this strategy except being able to use Time Sieve and some good tutors.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 8:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The thing with strong synergies is they work better than people anticipate even if they're individually weaker. They can also be very tricky on which pieces are the strongest for you to use your removal on. If you're just playing goodstuff.dec it becomes very obvious which cards are the biggest threats.

Land drops aren't hard to hit, attacking isn't difficult, cast triggers are common. Discrediting Tireless Tracker or Ongoing Investigation because "you have to do something" (which can be done the same turn you cast it) is rather pointless.

If nothing else, starting with two clues, a Parallel Lives out and activate Echo Mage on Second Harvest. Suddenly you go from 2 to 6 to 18 to 54 for 6 mana. That's 11 extra turns with no extra work.

Conversely, you take that 4 per turn and throw in a rings of brighthearth.

It's also worth noting that you don't have to generate 5 a turn to make this dangerous. If you're making clues from turn 1 and don't drop your time Sieve til turn 8 you've got 8 turns worth of clue tokens to dip into before your "only 4 per turn" becomes relevant. 3-4 uncontested turns is still likely lethal or at least gives you a lot of extra time to dig into an extra combo piece to make it infinite.

There are plenty of very easy ways to make this type of build work. Will it be tier 1 or even tier 2? Not likely. It's still going to be plenty viable for the average meta and it's certainly more fun than some other combo options.

The bigger concern is really if such a build is even worth the effort since extra turn combos are lame.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-01 9:43 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
You guys are really going all in on this magical christmas land scenario.

Epsilon wrote:
The thing with strong synergies is they work better than people anticipate even if they're individually weaker. They can also be very tricky on which pieces are the strongest for you to use your removal on. If you're just playing goodstuff.dec it becomes very obvious which cards are the biggest threats.



Lets not kid ourselves here. If you are tutoring each turn for zero mana people are going to blow up your stuff. Goodstuff or no.

Quote:
Land drops aren't hard to hit, attacking isn't difficult, cast triggers are common. Discrediting Tireless Tracker or Ongoing Investigation because "you have to do something" (which can be done the same turn you cast it) is rather pointless.


Mana screw is a thing, blocking is a thing, not having the right cards in hand is a thing (just to point out that the only instants and sorceries that have been suggested is second harvest and confirm suspisions, two cards out of 99).
Quote:
If nothing else, starting with two clues, a Parallel Lives out and activate Echo Mage on Second Harvest. Suddenly you go from 2 to 6 to 18 to 54 for 6 mana. That's 11 extra turns with no extra work.


It is not six mana. It is 20+ mana and echo mage needs to be able to use his ability. Somebody casts Summary Dismissal and all that set up has gone to waste (or just destroys time sieve).

I highly doupt that this clue time sieve combo deck could even compete against precon decks.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-02 2:15 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
You guys are really going all in on this magical christmas land scenario.

Epsilon wrote:
The thing with strong synergies is they work better than people anticipate even if they're individually weaker. They can also be very tricky on which pieces are the strongest for you to use your removal on. If you're just playing goodstuff.dec it becomes very obvious which cards are the biggest threats.



Lets not kid ourselves here. If you are tutoring each turn for zero mana people are going to blow up your stuff. Goodstuff or no.


Ok blow up the tutor thing that's already done it's job. No one said anything about tutoring every turn though. That would "waste" the clues needed for time sieve.

Quote:
Quote:
Land drops aren't hard to hit, attacking isn't difficult, cast triggers are common. Discrediting Tireless Tracker or Ongoing Investigation because "you have to do something" (which can be done the same turn you cast it) is rather pointless.


Mana screw is a thing, blocking is a thing, not having the right cards in hand is a thing (just to point out that the only instants and sorceries that have been suggested is second harvest and confirm suspisions, two cards out of 99).


Ramp/card draw is a thing, unblockable/evasion is a thing, tutoring is a thing. Discrediting anything on luck is about as useful as thinking you're good when you get a god hand. If you build your deck to support a theme, you can support a theme. A whole ten cards have been listed... assuming you're only going to have two instants/sorceries because the list isn't fleshed out is being ridiculously closed minded.

Quote:
Quote:
If nothing else, starting with two clues, a Parallel Lives out and activate Echo Mage on Second Harvest. Suddenly you go from 2 to 6 to 18 to 54 for 6 mana. That's 11 extra turns with no extra work.


It is not six mana. It is 20+ mana and echo mage needs to be able to use his ability. Somebody casts Summary Dismissal and all that set up has gone to waste (or just destroys time sieve).

I highly doupt that this clue time sieve combo deck could even compete against precon decks.

[/quote]

Yeah or they could stifle the trigger and cast an overloaded rift! EVERYTHING has an answer. Dies to removal is not a very good argument and never has been.

Time Sieve is probably not the best route to take clues but that doesn't make it a terrible design. Precons don't generally include more than one mediocre board wipe and have a highly variable power level so pretty much anything can compete with them.

Low visibility card draw is extremely powerful. Combo is a viable win condition. "Free tutors" are downright broken. Yeah sounds like a horrible deck.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-03 2:44 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
@Epsilon

I was considering that someone would likely build an artifact deck that craps out tokens like crazy and take advantage of that while using time sieve to smash your opponents

_________________
Image

RaiRai's Decks of Otherworldlyness:

Unknown Horizons
Bane of the Vast 1.0
Call from Eternity
Twisted Nightmares


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-04 10:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
You guys are really going all in on this magical christmas land scenario.

Epsilon wrote:
The thing with strong synergies is they work better than people anticipate even if they're individually weaker. They can also be very tricky on which pieces are the strongest for you to use your removal on. If you're just playing goodstuff.dec it becomes very obvious which cards are the biggest threats.



Lets not kid ourselves here. If you are tutoring each turn for zero mana people are going to blow up your stuff. Goodstuff or no.


Ok blow up the tutor thing that's already done it's job. No one said anything about tutoring every turn though. That would "waste" the clues needed for time sieve.

It hasn't already done it's job at this point, since it only makes one per upkeep. You would presumably need it every upkeep with whatever doublers you're using, unless you're all in on the plan that you need to double several times for 40 clues in one turn, and THEN it doesn't matter.
Which is absolutely magical christmas land and no one is going to let you use the 'free' tutor for the rest of pieces and lost to something like that.

This would be like the worst deck i could think of.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 3:19 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-03 7:15 am
Age: Drake
Time Sieve combos have been a thing since 2009... It's been more than well known for about 7 years.

Also Clues are incredibly inefficient compared to Thopter Foundry, or heck, many of the other cards that produce artifact creature tokens.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 6:04 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-14 4:05 am
Age: Wyvern
Hi

Maybe if the whole point of the deck is to create extra turns this might work out. I love clues but personally my favorite way to get unlimited turns is brought to you by Ezuri, claw of progress 2015 EDH commander and his good buddy Sage of hours. Get Ezuri to at least 4 experience, play Sage of hours bringing Ezuri to 5 experience, give Sage the 5 +1/+1 counters at start of combat phase, remove anytime now before your end of turn, thus begins the unlimited turns unless opponent can immediately counter or within that turn deal with the Sage of hours , you win.

cheers


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combo: Time Sieve and Clues
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 10:22 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Commando calrissian wrote:
Hi

Maybe if the whole point of the deck is to create extra turns this might work out. I love clues but personally my favorite way to get unlimited turns is brought to you by Ezuri, claw of progress 2015 EDH commander and his good buddy Sage of hours. Get Ezuri to at least 4 experience, play Sage of hours bringing Ezuri to 5 experience, give Sage the 5 +1/+1 counters at start of combat phase, remove anytime now before your end of turn, thus begins the unlimited turns unless opponent can immediately counter or within that turn deal with the Sage of hours , you win.

cheers


In the right deck Sage is busted. I haven't drawn into him yet in Kraj, but he seems like he'd be a house.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: