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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-17 11:41 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
I'm not good at building decks with splashy Battlecruiser plays and a lot of F6 action. For those who don't know, F6 was/is 'pass priority for the rest of this turn' and is arguably the most important button on MTGO for multiplayer.


I don't, and haven't, really built this way online. Do I have decks that are mostly red zone? Yes. But I also have quite a few triggers and abilities decks. F8 (in V3, F4 default V4) used to be the most important shortcut key (until they broke it) especially in the early game when it is mostly Draw > Land > Go. Triggers decks need to use F7 (one time use at the beginning of the game and again after any use of F3) so that like triggers will always stack without having to click through each one to choose an order.

Really, the most important client aspect of playing online is paying attention to the game. If you are AFK, tell the room. Everyone hates when one person is not responding to an event for minutes at a time because they're on facebook or went on biobreak.

Also, yielding abilities. If you expect, for example, that you will not want to respond to your opponent's Honden of the Seeing Winds upkeep trigger; then the first time it comes up you right click the trigger on the stack and select "Always yield" and it will no longer even ask if you want priority in response to the trigger. If you draw something that you think you will want to use in response later; use F3 to cancel all yields.

V4 allows all but one of the shortcut keys to be mapped by the player (I have them all mimic the V2/3 version since that is what I am used to using) but the default keys are:

F2 – "Pass Priority/OK"
The system will click OK to the current prompt.

F3 – "Remove all Auto-Yields"
The system will remove all auto-yields, including auto yes, and auto no. This is used to stop commands like F4 and F6, as well as any right clicked auto-yields within a game.

F4 - "Pass Until You Can Respond"
This tells the system that you're done, but will give you a chance to play spells or abilities if something happens that you can respond to. If you press it during your turn and have creatures that can attack, the game will pause during the declare attackers phase. Once you attack or respond to something, the effect of F4 is cancelled and you have to press it again if you still don’t want to do anything that turn.

F5 – "Look at Face-down Cards (hold)"
Hold this key to look at all your face down cards. Release this key to put them back face down.

F6 - "Pass until End-of-Turn"
Yield to everything until the end of the current turn. If you select this, the system will not prompt you again during that turn. You will only be prompted if you are put into a situation where you are required to make a choice.

F7 – "Stack Abilities Automatically"
Until the end of the current game, the system will put all triggers with the same text that trigger at the same time on the stack automatically, if they do not target. For example, if you have three creatures with bushido that all are blocked at the same time, this will place all the bushido triggers on the stack without having to click to choose the order.

F8 – "Disable Bluffing"
The system will automatically pass priority for the rest of the game when you are unable to do anything.

Alt+Y – "Yes"
The system will choose yes for the current system prompt.

Alt+N – "No"
The system will choose no for the current system prompt.

Z – "Zoom (hold)"
Hold this key to zoom in on the currently highlighted card. Release this key to zoom back out.

Esc – "Cancel"
This will cancel the current selection. For example, if you begin the steps to cast a card but change your mind before finishing, you can hit escape to cancel the casting.

Ctrl+Z – "Undo"
This will undo the last click. You can repeat this process to undo multiple clicks, until the beginning of the current phase or until you reach a point where a choice cannot be undone by the game rules. This is most often used to untap land that you have changed your mind about tapping.

M – "Auto-Tap Mana (hold)"
Holding this key while clicking land for mana will cause the system to automatically choose the color of mana to pull from that land, if it can provide multiple colors, based on the spell you are attempting to cast. You must click the spell to cast it first, before tapping the land for mana, for this to have any effect.


Exception:
Ctrl – "Maintain Priority (hold)" (NOTE: This key binding cannot be changed)
Holding down the control key while casting a spell will maintain priority and allow you to cast another spell before giving your opponent a chance to respond.


Really, it's not about building a deck that doesn't use triggers, it about managing them properly. For example, if you have Soul Warden, Essence Warden and Aether Flash with F7 active; they won't stack automatically because Aether Flash's trigger does not match the other two. So when your opponent drops 5 tokens on the board, stack the Aether flash triggers first and the other 10 life triggers will stack themselves.

Use right click -> "always yield" and it won't prompt priority after each trigger. For "May" triggers, if you have them set to "always use this trigger" (also via a right click) then they would automatically resolve as well (after opponents had priority). When setting up the mini combos, you just manage so that you can respond where you need to, and yield where you don't. F3 will always let you change your mind.

It's odd sometimes that what eats up time in paper is so different than what eats up time online. Warp World resolves in seconds online (plus a few for stacking the triggers, still less than a minute when everyone is paying attention). SDT is one of the Banes of online, because every time it goes to the top of the library and is recast it is a new object and loses all the yields you had in place.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-18 1:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Treamayne wrote:
<lots of valuable information>

Exactly, there's a whole additional learning curve, and a lot of it are tricks to that you don't need and won't pick up even if you, say, draft online once a month.

And there are still categories of cards (like Searing Meditation - cards that trigger fairly often, need a target and a payment) that can't be optimized (as far as I know anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-19 3:55 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
What's stopping you from having a go online?

The biggest issue for me is that I'd have to build a collection essentially from scratch, when I already have quite an extensive collection in physical form. Seems like a ton of effort to reach the point where I could re-build my decks on-line.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-19 5:25 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Ya, the interest doesn't seem high enough to try and convince people.

My only argument against having to rebuild your collection is to start with 1 list and consider it a extension of your collection instead.

If it allows you to play more Commander, even if limited online to one list, that's a good thing right?

All of course if I could organize enough people here to play, but that's not looking likely. The MTGO prejudice is strong.

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-19 10:11 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
I also just realized I'm really drawn to physical cards because it means I can personalize them if I want to. Is there any way to alter your cards in MTGO, and if you can is it even noticeable on the screen? My Faustian, King Midas theme deck with Macar at the head is unique in how I've been using token cards in place of basic Swamps and coloring them gold to make them look 'gold-touched.' The deck would likely be more of your run-of-the-mill Voltron deck without that. The golden tokens really pushes the flavor over the top.

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 1:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You can alter card art in your local resource files (or at least you could historically) and it will show up for you. Nobody else will see how cool your deck is though.

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 2:19 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
My only argument against having to rebuild your collection is to start with 1 list and consider it a extension of your collection instead.

Yes, but how much would the initial investment be? Forgive my ignorance (never done MTGO after all) but if tickets translate roughly to US dollars, I'd probably be looking at significant up-front cost to get even one deck going. I'm simply too invested in the physical game to want to put up the money for occasional online play, and I live in an area where regular in-person play is viable, so there's no motivation to get in.

GoodbyeWorld wrote:
The MTGO prejudice is strong.

I have heard bad things about MTGO, but that has nothing to do with my reluctance to use it.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 3:18 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Yes, but how much would the initial investment be? Forgive my ignorance (never done MTGO after all) but if tickets translate roughly to US dollars, I'd probably be looking at significant up-front cost to get even one deck going.

Tix are $1 each from the online shop, but the prices of cards are usually much cheaper online.

The main exception are current set bulk mythics (which are valuable online because they are needed to redeem complete sets), and sometimes mythics that are seeing plenty of standard play.

You can get prices at mtggoldfish for both paper and online if you want to do some comparison, but to throw a few competitive format cards out there as examples: Online goyfs are about 60 tix, Snapcaster is 19, Volcanic Island is 16.

It gets even more extreme for cards that have most of their paper value from Commander & other casual formats. Consecrated Sphinx is under 5 tix. Mana Reflection is 2 tix, as is Aura Shards. 1 ticket will get you both Akroma's Memorial and Gilded Lotus. Vintage counts as a casual format for these purposes, too. Mishra's Workshop is 4.5 tix and Mana Drain is 4.75.

Obviously you can spend a pretty penny on your mana base, but it will still be cheaper than paper (shocks and khans fetches are all single digits), and you only need one copy of each land ever.

Unless you are building something with lots of cards that see competitive play, you can put together something very reasonable for 30-50 tickets including a solid (but not perfect) mana base.


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 3:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Yes, but how much would the initial investment be? Forgive my ignorance (never done MTGO after all) but if tickets translate roughly to US dollars, I'd probably be looking at significant up-front cost to get even one deck going.

Tickets = US Dollars, at least in small quantities. However, the MTGO economy and the online model combine to offer a number of advantages here.

Sure, if you want to play fetches and duals and cards that overlap Modern/Legacy staple cards then you're looking at a deep investment. That investment will be cheaper than the equivalent in paper cards, at least for most cards. And you'll only need one of a given card, as you have the ability to play it in as many decks as you want.

So if you go for that angle then your investment doesn't just buy you one deck, you have the ability to play dozens of decks with similar manabases & goodstuffs.

And you don't even have to go for that angle at all. Singles can be bought for the equivalent of a penny or less, bots and bot networks will take your tickets and you can carry ticket fraction balances, allowing you to really stretch a single ticket a long long way.

If you really work at it (eg go for one/two colour decks, go heavy on commons and uncommons) then you can build multiple Commander decks for the equivalent of whatever a draft of paper Magic costs you. And they can be synergistic / themed / what have you.

The cost of MTGO has never been the big turn off for me, in fact the cost is in many ways much lower than paper Magic, but you have to put a little work into that part of it.

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"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 7:31 am 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
I play MTGO, but have not done commander there in years, as commander with randoms is not something I do. I would be interested if an actual group built up, but my online schedule is pretty full.

As to cost, that should not be an issue online at all if you are the slightest bit savvy and do your research. As has been said, most cards you want are super cheap, and there are freebots and pennybots where you can pick up a lot of very playable cards. Bulk rares are pennies, and if you put just a little time into playing ques, you can actually grow a collection out of very little.

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-20 8:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Buthrakaur wrote:
and if you put just a little time into playing ques, you can actually grow a collection out of very little.
Can you expand on this and how it gets us cards cheaply?

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-29 8:02 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Being a lover of cube I have been picking up a few of the legendary cube prize packs. I've picked up an Anya and tried to put a deck together, but it is a lot of junk, I really started to run short of cards after the first half. I also have a Noyan Dar which I'm going to have a go at some time this week.

I am from Narnia (Australia) so finding a time to play with you guys may be difficult since you're in the past.

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Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-29 11:13 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
specter404 wrote:
Being a lover of cube I have been picking up a few of the legendary cube prize packs. I've picked up an Anya and tried to put a deck together, but it is a lot of junk, I really started to run short of cards after the first half. I also have a Noyan Dar which I'm going to have a go at some time this week.

I am from Narnia (Australia) so finding a time to play with you guys may be difficult since you're in the past.


What is your screen name? I am in New Zealand, so time difference isn't horrible at all.

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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-29 11:22 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Same as here, Specter404. I'm pretty much the same user name universally.

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Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


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 Post subject: Re: What could I say for you to give Commander on MTGO a chance?
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-29 11:38 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, until January I work 0500-1300Z so when I get to log on, it is usually my day off and in that general time frame (which would make it between 1300/1600 - 2100/0000 in OZ (depending on time zone and DST) and 1400/1500 - 0100/0200 Kiwi time (depending on DST).

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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