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 Post subject: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-06 2:50 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
I'm dissatisfied with this deck, and I expect I'll be dissatisfied by it a lot. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'll enjoy playing the deck; however, I'll continue to want this deck to change. After scouring through countless instants and sorceries in Blue and White, this list reflects what I think I'll play a few times before I probably change a lot of cards. I still have probably a couple hundred cards sitting around looking for a spot.
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Noyan Dar, simply put, makes every instant and sorcery you cast also make a 3/3 creature. Whispers of the Muse becomes "Draw a card. Make a 3/3" for U. Ray of Command becomes "Now you have two extra blockers." Spelltwine becomes "Get value twice, and then get it a few more times."

Now, of course you won't always make another of your lands a 3/3 creature. Most of the time you'll just power up the same land.

This section is still heavier than I want it to be. There's SO MANY GOOD CARDS THOUGH.

Ramp--6 cards
Armillary Sphere
Pilgrim's Eye
Sapphire Medallion
Solemn Simulacrum
Sol Ring
Sword of the Animist

Creature Support--5 cards
Aven Mimeomancer--yeah, 6/5 fliers? I'll take that.
Enduring Renewal--few creatures and can help offset losing lands.
Skywise Teachings--one of the few cards I wouldn't mind parting with, but is still pretty good.
Talrand, Sky Summoner--same as Skywise Teachings, except even better.
True Conviction--mostly because I can.

Spell Support--9 cards
Cast Through Time--extra spell casting.
Isochron Scepter--because you play the copy...which is weird, but still.
Leyline of Anticipation--this card never works out as well as I'd like.
Mnemonic Wall--repeat what you just said?
Narset Transcendent
Snapcaster Mage--the best of Flashback.
Spellweaver Volute--I've always wanted to use this card.
Sphinx-Bone Wand--extra win condition.
Uyo, Silent Prophet--can be used to save one of my lands while simultaneously getting a copy.


If I look at this any longer, I might want to change all of the cards. I've separated them into sections based on their function in the deck...more or less. There's a lot of these which fit multiple roles.

Casts more than once--7 cards
Profound Journey--rebound plus regaining lands I might have lost...seems good.
Spell Burst--I don't really like it, but Buyback is hard to beat.
Controvert--similar to Spell Burst.
Reality Strobe--slow, but steady wins the race.
Mystic Speculation--okay, enough with the Buyback.
Hidden Strings--can pay for itself, casts more than one time...I've played this before and liked it.
Clockspinning--no, seriously, enough with Buyback...unless I can find Evangelize...no no no stop it this is the list!

Draw cards--11 cards
Preordain
Impulse
Treasure Cruise
Quicken
Deep Analysis
See Beyond
Tezzeret's Gambit
Ponder
Brainstorm
Fact or Fiction
Frantic Search

There's nothing to see here.

Pro...protection?--10 cards
Purify the Grave--definitely need better graveyard exile effects, but I'll admit to not searching hard on this one.
Silent Departure--Flashback: that's the only reason it is currently here.
Mirrorweave--just think about it for a moment.
Planar Cleansing
Desertion
Rewind
Dismantling Blow
Swords to Plowshares
Snap
Illusionist's Gambit

Miscellaneous cards--8 cards
Just some stuff I thought might be good.
Gift of Estates
Remand
Twincast
Cryptic Command
Spelltwine
Relearn
Call to Mind--use this one to return Relearn, and rinse and repeat.
Knowledge Exploitation




I haven't even tested this deck out, but I'm hoping it plays out pretty well. Blue/White isn't a color combination I play often, because they always seem to turn out very prison-y or wrath heavy or counter spell heavy. I believe I can avoid those kinds of decks with this one, and if that happens I'll be very satisfied.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-06 3:29 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Capsize seems like it should really be in here.
Planar Outburst seems like kind of a no-brainer too.

I'd also give some thought to these guys;
Abzan Battle Priest
Abzan Falconer
Ainok Bond-Kin
Sapphire Drake
Halimar Tidecaller

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, you can double up on his triggers, by which I mean if you cast 3 spells, you can make one land a 9/9 if you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-06 3:49 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Capsize seems like it should really be in here.
Planar Outburst seems like kind of a no-brainer too.

I'd also give some thought to these guys;
Abzan Battle Priest
Abzan Falconer
Ainok Bond-Kin
Sapphire Drake
Halimar Tidecaller

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, you can double up on his triggers, by which I mean if you cast 3 spells, you can make one land a 9/9 if you want.
I only pulled from my collection, and I didn't have a Capsize on hand. Otherwise it would be in here. Planar Outburst seemed good, but the other true wrath I have takes out planeswalkers and such. If I feel I need another wrath, then it'll go in.

Of those creatures, flying seems the best. I considered them...but they never made it in. Is giving one land flying better than Talrands tokens, for example? Hard to say yet, without testing.

I actually noted hitting the same land with Noyan, so I am aware. There's so many cards for this deck, isn't there?

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-06 4:21 pm 

Joined: 2013-Feb-06 3:13 pm
Age: Drake
There's a lot of talk about using manlands with Noyan.
Inkmoth Nexus: 2 activations of Noyan results in a 7/7 infect flier whenever you activate the nexus's ability. 3 activations and you've got lethal.
Blinkmoth Nexus: Evasive, plus can pump inkmoth.
Celestial Colonnade
Faerie Conclave
Mutavault
Etc etc

Sage of Fables is a good source of card draw for you as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-06 10:42 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Good point about manlands. I meant to make a mental note to look for some in my cards, but I seem to have forgotten.

I passed over Sage of Fables for more instants and sorceries. There are about 14 cards which directly draw cards, and a number of cards with Flashback. I'm not overly concerned with drawing enough cards right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-07 3:48 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You expect to get a single land back with Profound Journey for seven mana? Really?

Try Planar Birth, Second Sunrise, Faith's Reward, etc... significantly better for a fraction of the cost.

You need to be playing Teferi's Response in this. Card draw, protection and destruction in one...

Cauldron of Souls will repeatedly save your lands making them 2/2's the next time they're animated.

Darksteel Citadel is a must.

Flagstones of Trokair is really good here.

Terra Eternal.

Teferi's Veil swing with your big honking land then they phase out so you don't risk losing lands to sorcery speed removal.

I would suggest Neurok Stealthsuit to protect your general with the added bonus of instant speed protection of your other creatures/lands. If Noyan dies, you're quickly screwed, especially if you've lost a few lands. He will quickly become uncastable and without him in play you're doing basically nothing.

Your "ramp" cards are rather bad IMO. I'd swap sphere for Expedition Map and the eye for Burnished Hart at the very least. You can also use Knight of the White Orchid and friends to ramp directly into play.

Crucible of Worlds is really important here. If you can afford one it will be a godsend in this deck.

I'd play Forbid over spell burst or controvert. You should already be able to draw enough cards that discarding a few won't hurt but not enough that you can take over the game with it.

I'd play the new flip jace if you have one. He gives all your spells flashback but you can still pay the buyback to get them back to hand.

Strionic Resonator will give all your spells a +2 for 6 counters effect.

At first glance, your deck is too high curve and not able to recover well from removal/wipes. You're playing too many lands rather than ways to get lands into play or otherwise ramp. You're playing a deck that needs to be able cast spells which requires a lot of mana but the deck also is entirely dependent on having lands as attackers/blockers which means you'll either be left open or left short mana to do anything with the current iteration.


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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-07 5:27 am 

Joined: 2015-Feb-10 3:10 am
Age: Drake
Equinox is a fun oldie for land protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-07 9:17 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Epsilon wrote:
You expect to get a single land back with Profound Journey for seven mana? Really?

Try Planar Birth, Second Sunrise, Faith's Reward, etc... significantly better for a fraction of the cost.

You need to be playing Teferi's Response in this. Card draw, protection and destruction in one...

Cauldron of Souls will repeatedly save your lands making them 2/2's the next time they're animated.

Darksteel Citadel is a must.

Flagstones of Trokair is really good here.

Terra Eternal.

Teferi's Veil swing with your big honking land then they phase out so you don't risk losing lands to sorcery speed removal.

I would suggest Neurok Stealthsuit to protect your general with the added bonus of instant speed protection of your other creatures/lands. If Noyan dies, you're quickly screwed, especially if you've lost a few lands. He will quickly become uncastable and without him in play you're doing basically nothing.

Your "ramp" cards are rather bad IMO. I'd swap sphere for Expedition Map and the eye for Burnished Hart at the very least. You can also use Knight of the White Orchid and friends to ramp directly into play.

Crucible of Worlds is really important here. If you can afford one it will be a godsend in this deck.

I'd play Forbid over spell burst or controvert. You should already be able to draw enough cards that discarding a few won't hurt but not enough that you can take over the game with it.

I'd play the new flip jace if you have one. He gives all your spells flashback but you can still pay the buyback to get them back to hand.

Strionic Resonator will give all your spells a +2 for 6 counters effect.

At first glance, your deck is too high curve and not able to recover well from removal/wipes. You're playing too many lands rather than ways to get lands into play or otherwise ramp. You're playing a deck that needs to be able cast spells which requires a lot of mana but the deck also is entirely dependent on having lands as attackers/blockers which means you'll either be left open or left short mana to do anything with the current iteration.
Dissatisfied with the list too? Many of the cards lead me to believe the assumption is I'll be making a bunch of my lands into creatures, and that sounds like a bad plan overall. Otherwise, ~3.4 CMC average doesn't sound like a "high curve" to me, especially with most of your suggestions solidifying that average.

EDIT: Although, you're right, the ramp isn't great. I think I'll switch in Expedition Map and Journeyer's Kite if what I have doesn't pan out.
AutoXCivic wrote:
Equinox is a fun oldie for land protection.
I actually own one of these. I dislike how many non instant/sorcery cards are in the deck, so I probably won't be adding this one despite how amusing it would be to make everyone ask to look at the card.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 2:57 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I did say at first glance... I didn't do the math on it. I do see a lot of 5-7 drops in your list in excess of what I'd say is reasonable in a control deck that needs untapped lands to win. You're also playing a lot of buyback and I assume you will want to pay that buyback more than half the time so that should be included in your curve. Although all but two suggestion were 3 or less CMC so my suggestions would definitely bring your curve down even from the 3.4. If that is your average CMC, you likely have two peaks with no middle ground rather than a single curve.

I'm just giving suggestions based on what I feel is missing in the deck. It's your deck. I'll be building around him myself as soon as I can get my hands on a mirrorweave. (No stores or players locally have one for trade and I'm hesitant to buy online at the moment.)


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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 5:56 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Epsilon wrote:
I did say at first glance... I didn't do the math on it. I do see a lot of 5-7 drops in your list in excess of what I'd say is reasonable in a control deck that needs untapped lands to win. You're also playing a lot of buyback and I assume you will want to pay that buyback more than half the time so that should be included in your curve. Although all but two suggestion were 3 or less CMC so my suggestions would definitely bring your curve down even from the 3.4. If that is your average CMC, you likely have two peaks with no middle ground rather than a single curve.

I'm just giving suggestions based on what I feel is missing in the deck. It's your deck. I'll be building around him myself as soon as I can get my hands on a mirrorweave. (No stores or players locally have one for trade and I'm hesitant to buy online at the moment.)
I was mostly needling you, as it came off a little harsh in terms of criticism. There are some high cost cards, and Profound Journey is the weakest of them.

1 CMC--11 cards
2 CMC--12 cards
3 CMC--6 cards
4 CMC--14 cards
5 CMC--4 cards
6 CMC--5 cards
>7 CMC--5 cards

It is almost entirely the 4 CMC cards driving the deck's mana. I'm mostly counting on many of the deck's spells getting more than one use. Did you think of Mirrorweave for this deck too? I had a friend who loved Mirrorweave. He would Mirrorweave stuff like Dandan and wipe the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 9:01 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Hmm. This deck is really a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. Nice analysis, Epsilon.

I guess I see why he's white now: all the white cards that protect lands.

Also: pyramids.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 11:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
mmcgeach wrote:
Hmm. This deck is really a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. Nice analysis, Epsilon.

I guess I see why he's white now: all the white cards that protect lands.

Also: pyramids.

I'm...just...but...there's...

...

...I'm glad you find Noyan Dar more interesting than you initially thought. Pyramids is quite the card. It'd be interesting to try making this deck 'old school' and only use cards before...I don't know, some edition or set or other.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 1:52 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Testing has been initially positive for the deck. It works very well as a control deck, and is capable of keeping at least a couple decks in check. I haven't seen too many problems with mana, as I never need to cast more than one or two spells a turn (currently). I'm hoping to get some real data later.

This is easily my favorite UW deck to date.

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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-12 2:33 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Testing has been initially positive for the deck. It works very well as a control deck, and is capable of keeping at least a couple decks in check. I haven't seen too many problems with mana, as I never need to cast more than one or two spells a turn (currently). I'm hoping to get some real data later.

This is easily my favorite UW deck to date.


This weekend I played a 2HG with my cousin piloting a very similar deck. I was using Dakkon Blackblade, opponents were Krenko and Atarka, Worldeater. It was a really good game. We were control verses 2 very aggressive decks. One of the best games in a while.

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With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Noyan Dar is Dissatisfied
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-12 4:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
It is almost entirely the 4 CMC cards driving the deck's mana. I'm mostly counting on many of the deck's spells getting more than one use. Did you think of Mirrorweave for this deck too? I had a friend who loved Mirrorweave. He would Mirrorweave stuff like Dandan and wipe the field.


That's pretty funny with Dandan. I think Mirrorweave is strong enough by itself here though. Turning all your 0/0 lands into huge eldrazi or whatnot after blocks or just turning their alpha striking army into a bunch of tapped islands. Un-animating all your lands and other creatures in response to a board wipe or even targetted removal. Etc... It's actually the main reason I'm going to be building around Noyan. He's very interesting on his own but those interactions are just gravy. I'll have to scrap my Ephara deck to build him and that deck is easily my strongest deck so it needed the hilarious play potential. I'm also going to include Sage of Hours for the potential to take a bunch of turns off the counters at instant speed. I don't usually play a lot of extra turn cards but that's enough hoops to set up that I don't think people will mind.


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