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 Post subject: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 10:32 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander—which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.

What I am getting from this is that face-down commanders still have commander status. So if you manifest your general into play with Jeskai Infiltrator then it will not exactly be a secret which is which. What I am unclear about is whether a general is identifiable in other hidden zones.

If I choose to send my commander to my hand and then an opponent plays Hymn to Tourach on me, will my general be identifiable throughout the whole process as being in a certain position in my hand? Also cards in hand are supposed to be unidentifiable. For instance it should be unknown which card in my hand is the card I drew for the turn, even though if you watch closely you could be able to tell. Being able to tell where the general is in the hand doesn't sit well with me.

Suppose I choose to have my general be shuffled into my library. Will everyone at the table be able to know the ending position of where my general is in my deck? Couldn't that lead to a player using Soldier of Fortune to have me shuffle my deck when they see that I'm about to draw it? If I shuffle my deck and present it to an opponent to cut, will they know the position of where the general is and can they use the information to determine how they do the cut (maybe subconsciously)?

I think that knowing the position and location of cards in hidden zones flies in the face of core rules of game which prevent players from cheating.

If players do not know which card is the general in a deck, then there would be the "issue" of losing access to a general through cards like Pyxis of Pandemonium. Then again I don't think that this would be as bad as allowing for players to cheat.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 11:22 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Quote:
When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander—which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.

What I am getting from this is that face-down commanders still have commander status. So if you manifest your general into play with Jeskai Infiltrator then it will not exactly be a secret which is which. What I am unclear about is whether a general is identifiable in other hidden zones.

If I choose to send my commander to my hand and then an opponent plays Hymn to Tourach on me, will my general be identifiable throughout the whole process as being in a certain position in my hand? Also cards in hand are supposed to be unidentifiable. For instance it should be unknown which card in my hand is the card I drew for the turn, even though if you watch closely you could be able to tell. Being able to tell where the general is in the hand doesn't sit well with me.

Suppose I choose to have my general be shuffled into my library. Will everyone at the table be able to know the ending position of where my general is in my deck? Couldn't that lead to a player using Soldier of Fortune to have me shuffle my deck when they see that I'm about to draw it? If I shuffle my deck and present it to an opponent to cut, will they know the position of where the general is and can they use the information to determine how they do the cut (maybe subconsciously)?

I think that knowing the position and location of cards in hidden zones flies in the face of core rules of game which prevent players from cheating.

If players do not know which card is the general in a deck, then there would be the "issue" of losing access to a general through cards like Pyxis of Pandemonium. Then again I don't think that this would be as bad as allowing for players to cheat.

The way I've always played is that the "known location" only extends to you knowing the zone in which it resides. So if I Cyclonic Rift, we will all know that your general is in your hand, but if I then Mind Twist you, none of us should have an advantage of knowledge which card is actually your general. Same with the library. You [s]can[/s] could know that your general was in your library, but the actual position within should be unknown. The only difference is that when your commander is face down on the battlefield it still retains it's generalness, so it is your responsibility to ensure that each player know which face down creature is your general.

I'm not actually sure if each player should have knowledge at all times of the zone. For instance, if I bounced your general and then you Brainstormed, should I know if you chose to put it on top of your library?


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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 2:21 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
If I choose to send my commander to my hand and then an opponent plays Hymn to Tourach on me, will my general be identifiable throughout the whole process as being in a certain position in my hand? Also cards in hand are supposed to be unidentifiable.
Typical way I run it is that you cannot tell something is a commander when it's in a hidden zone, but if it's on the battlefield it is always identified as having commander status even if it is face down or otherwise has had its status changed. The rules don't make it completely clear in any case, so YMMV with your playgroup, but since your commander cannot be moved to any hidden zone without your permission the distinction is mostly moot at this point.

MrCool wrote:
For instance it should be unknown which card in my hand is the card I drew for the turn, even though if you watch closely you could be able to tell. Being able to tell where the general is in the hand doesn't sit well with me.
Actually, there is no "position in hand" - no card in your hand is considered "on top", "on bottom", or anything other than "in your hand". Also, you are definitely allowed to know which card was just drawn, since Sylvan Library and cards with miracle require that knowledge.

If you're concerned that someone can "randomly pick" a card from your hand by knowing it's your commander or the last card you drew, don't worry - they're not allowed to simply choose a card that they know anything about. Pulling cards unseen from your opponents hand is how people usually do a "random" grab, but you're fully in your rights to require a random method such as a die roll if you want (and are kinda required to if there's any real question of it being truly random).

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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 2:53 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Willbender wrote:
Also, you are definitely allowed to know which card was just drawn, since Sylvan Library and cards with miracle require that knowledge.

This is actually a weird one that comes up with legacy judging at sufficiently large events. Your opponent doesn't actually know which card is the one you just drew strictly by the rules, though you are strongly encouraged to make that information known if you have a Sylvan Library in play since destroying that bit of info means you are paying the life for that card in practice.

Miracles make it easier since the card is revealed as it is drawn and stays revealed until the miracle trigger resolves.


[quoute]If you're concerned that someone can "randomly pick" a card from your hand by knowing it's your commander or the last card you drew, don't worry - they're not allowed to simply choose a card that they know anything about. Pulling cards unseen from your opponents hand is how people usually do a "random" grab, but you're fully in your rights to require a random method such as a die roll if you want (and are kinda required to if there's any real question of it being truly random).[/quote]
^This. The Revelation+Hypnotic Specter combo I used to rock in junior high is not as sweet as I thought it was at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 4:34 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MrCool wrote:
What I am getting from this is that face-down commanders still have commander status.

Always has. This rule has not changed, as the announcement indicated.
MrCool wrote:
So if you manifest your general into play with Jeskai Infiltrator then it will not exactly be a secret which is which. What I am unclear about is whether a general is identifiable in other hidden zones.

No. Hidden zones are just that... hidden. Also, being manifested is not a hidden zone. It's on the battlefield. That means you have to give any public information, like being a general.
MrCool wrote:
If players do not know which card is the general in a deck, then there would be the "issue" of losing access to a general through cards like Pyxis of Pandemonium.

There has always been that possibility. Even when the "Exiled face down" rule was in place, Pyxis didn't invoke it because nobody can look at the cards it exiles. That issue should basically never come up now though, since generals being in the library should be pretty rare.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-03 7:40 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks for clearing things up guys. Although I would still like to know the answer to this:
cryogen wrote:
if I bounced your general and then you Brainstormed, should I know if you chose to put it on top of your library?


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 Post subject: Re: Clarifications about generalness
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 10:49 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MrCool wrote:
Thanks for clearing things up guys. Although I would still like to know the answer to this:
cryogen wrote:
if I bounced your general and then you Brainstormed, should I know if you chose to put it on top of your library?

As far as I'm concerned, no. It went from a hidden zone to a hidden zone. You chose NOT to reveal it and put it into the command zone, so there's no reason whatsoever I should know where it is.

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