Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Aug-18 3:04 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Does Fastbond belong on the Banned List?
Yes, It's too powerful for EDH. 66%  66%  [ 38 ]
No, Fast mana is just part of Magic. Let it be. 34%  34%  [ 20 ]
Total votes : 58
Author Message
 Post subject: Fastbond Poll
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 4:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Does Fastbond belong on the banned list? This is a simple poll so get some numbers as to what the current EDH community has to say about the "Fastbond Problem."

For more discussion check out the most recent thread: http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewt ... sc&start=0

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 7:07 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I think it's probably too powerful with some of the other cards in the format. I think by itself it is ok, but it enables a lot of combos.

BTW, I never think that online polls are the best way to determine this kind of thing. It's too easy to fake who you are and vote multiple times.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 7:13 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I think there are more than enough Fastbond threads.. mods should start merging them.

We get it. The card's a problem.

_________________
My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 7:40 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
The only time I have a problem with Fastbond is when it's chillin' with Strip Mine and Crucible.

_________________
My EDH (and general Magic) blog: scoutsedh.blogspot.com

Check it out sometime.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 7:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
RobPro wrote:
I think there are more than enough Fastbond threads.. mods should start merging them.

We get it. The card's a problem.


The card's not such a problem on its own actually when you compare it to cards like Crypt, Vault & Sol Ring in terms of pure accelleration. In an opening hand of 8 cards (on the draw) you are looking at having enough land of exactly the right colour and exactly the right spell to do anything game breaking. In a multiplayer format like EDH, if that gamebreaker is a creature, I still don't fancy its chances. Does it give you an unfair advantage over a player who either doesn't have a Fastbond opener or doesn't play green? Probably, but this in itself cannot be a grounds for banning or you have to look very closely at the power level of the more colour accessible artifacts above. We don't want to go that road in EDH, I think.

It's all the fun stuff like Future Sight, Crucible, LftL and that unholy quad of lands that kill other lands Strip/Waste/Dust Bowl/Quarter that make Fastbond such a huge pain. So essentially you have to make a personal decision:

*Do you play Fastbond to power out an early Rafiq or similiar?
or
*Do you play Fastbond to make an unfun combo and destroy the game for your opponents?

Personally I run LftL, Fastbond, Crucible, Strip Mine & Wasteland in my Rafiq deck but I make a point of not recurring Strip Mine & Wasteland ever which is a little OTT in certain situations because it can really bite me, but the allows me to actually continue playing the cards for a one shot against problem lands. If I abused it, my play-group simply wouldn't play if I pulled out my Rafiq deck and I don't blame them.

If I remember, the only time I've ever double Strip Mined anything other than a land on a similiar power level to Academy/Maze etc. was to turn a 1/1 Terravore into a 4/4 Terravore so I wouldn't die to trample damage against a Gaddok Teeg deck.

I voted against any banning because the format is for people to have fun together and play with old cards. I have a personal mantra for building in EDH:

Don't abuse it and you won't lose it.

More people should take it up (especially those who claim to have the "Abuse MEEEEE!" demon sitting on their shoulder when they deckbuild).

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 11:42 am 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
It really isn't too powerful, it's more that it's just a fairly bad card other than to try to combo with. I think people are quite correct regarding identifying Fastbond as the problem card in Crucible/Fastbond/Zorb combos

But there's so many other cards out there which equivalently aren't likely to see much play other than as part of a combo. Earthcraft. Intruder Alarm. Basalt Monolith. I'd like to include Staff of Domination, but realistically, that's a flexible, cool and quite playable card even if you don't have a creature that taps for 6+ mana. And I'd probably like to include anything that puts +1/+1 counters on guys with persist. Should we ban them all - to basically say "No Combo in EDH" - or should we put something in the rules to do that, or should we just allow Timmys and Johnnies to play with their combos?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 11:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem with Fastbond is not PRIMARILLY the speed of the card. It's the sheer number of cards it combos out for a win with, making it easy to include in nearly any combo deck. People aren't complaining about fastbond because someone powered out their general or some huge spell a few turns early. It's the combo wins with fastbond people have a problem with.

As was said earlier in the thread, there are much, much more broken cards right now that are legal and provide the player with a lightning fast start. You want a culprit for fast mana acceleration, look to the artifacts.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 12:09 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-14 12:52 am
Age: Wyvern
There will always be a best combo deck in the format, and it will require a very large banned list to take care of every possible three card combo (and there are plenty of two card combos still in the environment) that has potential.

I find it funny how there was nearly zero mention of fastbond ruining games before crucible was unbanned. The interaction with future sight, LftL, draw 7s etc. had always existed, but all of a sudden a crusade to ban fastbond curtailed the unbanning a card that could enable a three card combo.

I'll be honest, my question to everyone cheering for bannings is do all of you honestly play in such a cutthroat environment that the power of fastbond can even be accurately assessed?

Even if it is the best combo in the format, there will still always be a best combo, but fastbond on its own doesn't break the game. Because EDH isn't a competitive structure, and the act of the inclusion of fastbond into a deck doesn't inherently do a massive amount of damage (citing pre unbanning as my reference, wherein no problems of the card were revealed) there should be no reason to ban it.

In a competitive environment, this format will be broken, unless the banned list take a massive overhaul. There is a lot more fast mana than fastbond in the format, many more combos, but that's part of the allure. I don't think the banned list should cater to the hardcore, because most of the player base isn't hardcore.

If a card in and of itself doesn't break the game, let it be.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 1:29 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Doj wrote:
There will always be a best combo deck in the format, and it will require a very large banned list to take care of every possible three card combo (and there are plenty of two card combos still in the environment) that has potential.

I find it funny how there was nearly zero mention of fastbond ruining games before crucible was unbanned. The interaction with future sight, LftL, draw 7s etc. had always existed, but all of a sudden a crusade to ban fastbond curtailed the unbanning a card that could enable a three card combo.


The problem isn't every three card combo, it's the ones that are so crippling and unfun. Turn 1 Rafiq is basically game unless a player has a swords. Even then with the right mana accel turn 2 rafiq for six is possible and likely with fastbond.

I've always been in favor of banning fastbond ever since I started playing EDH, I just wasn't this much of a problem before crucible was unbanned, hence not meriting the discussion.

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 1:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jan-29 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
I still believe that since EDH is a “Casual formatâ€

_________________
Net Decking . . . FTW!!!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 1:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
[quote="Oncita"]I still believe that since EDH is a “Casual formatâ€


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 3:50 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
good job I totally forgot to do this. *smacks head*

[quote="Oncita"]I still believe that since EDH is a “Casual formatâ€


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 8:23 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Those aren't the banning criteria posted on this website. Nor do I believe that such a cut and dry ultimatum of what can and can't be played should ever be implemented.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 9:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Apr-05 1:33 am
Age: Drake
Location: Des Moines, IA
It seems that the majority is in favor of Fastbond getting the axe, and I agree that it is kinda sick with Crucible returning. It's nut's alone though with having 40 life to work with. The people not wanting to see a banning (and this is just my guess) might not necessarily play the card, but are concerned that every little card that causes a problem will start getting axed, making the game unenjoyable for them. It basically comes down to you can't please everyone. My suggestion is that the people behind these rules listen carefully to the concerns of both sides and make the soundest decision possible.

_________________
My Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck: http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewt ... 17&start=0


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-11 1:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Magus of the Ur-Dragon wrote:
It seems that the majority is in favor of Fastbond getting the axe, and I agree that it is kinda sick with Crucible returning. It's nut's alone though with having 40 life to work with. The people not wanting to see a banning (and this is just my guess) might not necessarily play the card, but are concerned that every little card that causes a problem will start getting axed, making the game unenjoyable for them. It basically comes down to you can't please everyone. My suggestion is that the people behind these rules listen carefully to the concerns of both sides and make the soundest decision possible.


The thing about the banned list is that a lot of cards got the hammer simply because they overpowered in EDH, (sway of the stars etc) or too costly for the average casual player to buy (moxen etc)

I will try to analyze the ban list and determine how restrictive it really is in this casual format. Let us consider the 28 cards on the current banned list in an organized format and identify the true length of the ban list:

Too Costly and/or too broken in general:
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire, Ruby, Pearl, Emerald and Jet
Time Walk
Library of Alexandria

These cards should never have been printed so I think they should just be ignored as part of the "growing ban list for EDH" For the other 19 cards:

Broken/Overpowered in EDH:
Balance
Biorhythm
Sway of the Stars
Upheaval
Panoptic Mirror
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Coalition Victory
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Limited Resources
Time Vault

Once again, kind of obvious why they are here. They screw with the format and board state to varying levels. Most are unanswerable to anything other than a counterspell before they wreck you completely making the casual game unfun. I don't think anyone is pro-unfun. If you are try playing against them and see how you feel.

Combo:
Protean Hulk
Grindstone
Worldgorger Dragon
Recurring Nightmare (not sure if this belongs here or not)
Lion's Eye Diamond (almost a black lotus?)

This is where it gets a bit sticky. Combo or no combo? In my opnion it all depends on answerability and the resilience to disruption. Sure, there are many other combos out there but they are easier to answer.

Rules Specific:
Karakas
Riftsweeper

A few rules tweaks could get these cards off the ban list but as of right now it's understanable why they are here.

What's left:
Tinker
Metalworker

They are all ways to "cheat" stuff into play. This is probably the most controversial as to how they merit a swing from the ban hammer. Combo enabler or no? These ones have been identified as being just "too good." and rightly so in my opinion.

It is my opinion that any card that is resticted or banned in vintage should at least get some consideration as to the banned list. There are obvious differences in format (gush isn't nearly as good) but for the cards tha carry that sort of power over to EDH they should be on the watch list.

The ban list should reflect what the format is about. Given as this is a casual format I don't think it's about auto-win broken combos that are inmpossible to answer or spells that just leave you feeling completely helpless no matter how good of a position you were in. Obviously there are some exceptions (thieves auction, warp world,) but they aren't as extreme as losing your entire board state to an upheaval. They give you back something at least.

Fastbond, belongs somewhere between combo and mana cheaters. Lands Tax also got some attention but doesn't have a combo associated with it and gives you time to answer it before the game becomes unfun.

I don't think the expanding banned list is that restricitve. Honestly, there are only ten or so cards that are leave room for debate and the rest obviously need to be left in our collections (on the basis of the casual goals of this format.)

Sorry for any spelling mistakes. It's late and this was really long to write and it's getting really late. That's my analysis of the ban list and its the cards that deserve to be there. Also sorry if I put anything in the wrong group. These were only my speculations about where they belong.

*EDITED* Lion's Eye Diamond added to Combo Section

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


Last edited by Jukren54 on 2009-Apr-12 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: