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 Post subject: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-03 7:40 am
Age: Hatchling
Honestly, I've never been in a game where Sylvan Primordial took over and ran rampant without the aid of a Deadeye Navigator and/or Rite of Replication. While you could argue that Sylvan Primordial should be banned because it combos so well with those cards, I'd rather turn it around and ask why you're not banning the Navigator and Rite instead, as those two cards are capable of breaking every friggen card in the game that has an ETB effect, and have much more potential to ruin a fun game than a single Primordial ever could.

I could understand Primeval Titan, because it found any land and kept giving you lands until it died. Sylvan Primordial also ramps, but doesn't find any land = it doesn't combo as hard as the Titan did. And while yes, the primordial can set everyone else back a turn if you're not destroying stuff like Howling Mines or Grave Pacts, it's definitely not uncommon for someone to have a removal spell at the ready at the time you're able to cast it, just like they would for any other fatty.

So here's my question: Why on earth would you ban the Primordial over Deadeye or Rite? Is it because people are too fond of locking others down with Deadeye/Venser or Rite/Chancellor of the Annex? Or how about bouncing Chancellor of the Spires to your heart's content with Deadeye? How about a Tyrant of Discord to blow someone completely out of the game? Or how about exiling someone's stuff with Ashen Rider?
:facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:30 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spisepinden wrote:
it's definitely not uncommon for someone to have a removal spell at the ready at the time you're able to cast it, just like they would for any other fatty.

"Dies to removal" or "Can be countered" is generally a bad argument.
Spisepinden wrote:
Why on earth would you ban the Primordial over Deadeye or Rite?

They haven't got the kind of widespread vitriol that SyPrime inspired (though Deadeye is getting close). Honestly, though the RC announcement didn't say it directly, I think this is an Emrakul situation more than anything - so much of the community hated the thing, I think they felt it was best to just give it the axe and be done with it. This is just a guess on my part, based on no real knowledge of the situation, but it doesn't seem too far fetched to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:34 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-19 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
Sylvan played in every single green deck and additionally allmost everyone splashed green just for him, because it was so braindead easy. Need skill? Play green primordial.
Of course there are also many other strong cards in edh which I wouldn't ever use because they are like 1 card combos. But they don't fit in each deck as well.

Edit: and yeah, I think the format was better several years ago when pretty much only unfair cards was rhystic study, tooth and nail and sometimes other. It all started with Rise of the Eldrazi i think or somehwere there.


Last edited by Silencer on 2014-Feb-03 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:35 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Banning those cards doesn't stop recursion strategies.
See also:
Momentary Blink
Venser, the Sojourner
Phantasmal Image
Dance of Many
Karador
Unburial Rites
Erratic Portal
Cloudstone Curio

And playing SP on turn 4 is miserable even if he never gets blinked.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:15 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-03 7:40 am
Age: Hatchling
If it's the LD that people are afraid of, then why not ban more LD spells to send a message? Drop hexproof fatty, cast Armageddon hurr durr easy-mode engaged.
And if it's because there isn't a "may" clause and people think it's un-fun because of that, then people should just stop running it, just like my local playgroup doesn't run mass land-destruction because it screws everyone over except for the one guy who has Privileged Position and a fatty on the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:26 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spisepinden wrote:
if it's because there isn't a "may" clause and people think it's un-fun because of that, then people should just stop running it

I agree, but that's not how it works. Far more people will pay attention to the official banned list than to actually trying not be giant douchenozzles.

Part of the problem is that people rationalized its inclusion in a few ways (in the face of social pressure to stop running it or complaints about it);
1. It does more than just blow up lands
2. I have to because everyone else does
and my personal favorite,
3. It's legal in the format

1. This is the most legitimate statement - it's an answer for green decks to use on problem stuff. On the flip side, though, they have plenty of other answers, and ones that are generally more political/acceptable to others because you don't have to totally hose the guy with a bad opener to shut down the guy that's getting out of control.
2. I've heard this a lot from individuals that complain about the card but can't seem to just stop using the damn thing. Social pressure can keep things in check, but it doesn't work if you're doing it yourself. Don't be a hypocrite - end the cycle.
3. This is the excuse of people that just want to be douchenozzles but don't want to say they enjoy being douchenozzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:39 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Spisepinden wrote:
If it's the LD that people are afraid of, then why not ban more LD spells to send a message?
This card was MLD stapled to ramp, especially early. 6 for 1 in lands on T4 is going to rise some ire. People hated it (even when they played it), and it needed to go. Community health has to be taken into account.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:25 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-06 10:45 pm
Age: Hatchling
DEN wasn't the primary offender in this case. Sure it was pretty darn good with Sylvan Primordial but so were a multitude of other things. Phyrexian Reclamation, Roon, Corpse Dance, Cloudshift, Crystal Shard were a few things that were also dumb. In short it's easier to ban one card than the 40-50 other things that work disgustingly well with it.

That being said believe that DEN should be banned as well due to not actually adding anything interesting to the format. But that's another argument for another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:54 am 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern
This kinda hearkens back to the age-old disagreement I've had with certain people regarding what IS and ISN'T appropriate in a particular format.

Bottom line #1: Sylvan Primordial was banned because of the players who abused it for their own nefarious purposes. My own group was discussing that this card will eventually be banned even when the damn thing was SPOILED, but that didn't stop some of them from using the card in combination with other cards, including Deadeye Navigator, which, IMHO, is probably next on the chopping block.

Bottom line #2: WoTC must scrutinize their use of, "enter the battlefield" abilities more closely during the design process for their sets. By itself, Primeval Titan & SP were a bit too OP because of their ability to ramp lands onto the battlefield, and that was why they fell to abuse. Here's a wild guess: If the land cards just went to your hand, both cards would probably still be legal, since you would need ANOTHER card on the field, like Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Exploration or Oracle of Mul Daya to take advantage of the extra land drops you now have.

Bottom line #3: The players HAVE to be more aware of the cards they put into their decks. The way I look at it, if a card (or color, in the case of my EDH group. HEHE) ends up being banned it's because the players can't be trusted to put the welfare of their group ahead of their own ambitions. Our group decided to ban blue because we came to a consensus that it was the most overpowered of all the colors when looked at from an EDH perspective.

This is the list of the top 25 most-popular Commanders in the last 365 days, according to http://www.metamox.com. The cards in red are part-blue (the list is current as of TODAY):

Kaalia of the Vast
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
*Maelstrom Wanderer
Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
* Sharuum the Hegemon
* Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
* Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
* Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
* Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
* Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

Hmm... 19 out of 25. Do you see a pattern here?

And just to compare, here is the SAME LISTING, but with part-green cards as Commanders:

Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
* Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
* Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
* Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
* Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

16 out of 25. Not as bad, with a majority of them overlapping with blue. Here's the same list, but with part-red Commanders:

* Kaalia of the Vast
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rafiq of the Many
* Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
* Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
* Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
* Melek, Izzet Paragon
* Krenko, Mob Boss
* Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

14 out of 25. Over half the list. Again, not as bad as blue in terms of numbers. Here's the list with part-white Commanders:

* Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
* Rafiq of the Many
Maelstrom Wanderer
* Mayael the Anima
Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
* Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
* Zedruu the Greathearted
* Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
Riku of Two Reflections
* Sen Triplets
* Zur the Enchanter
Damia, Sage of Stone
* Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

13 out of 25. Blue is still leading in sheer numbers. Now, let's go to the last color, black.

* Kaalia of the Vast
* Karador, Ghost Chieftain
* The Mimeoplasm
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rafiq of the Many
Maelstrom Wanderer
Mayael the Anima
Animar, Soul of Elements
* Progenitus (5 color)
Sharuum the Hegemon
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
* Nekusar, the Mindrazer
* Thraximundar
* Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Zedruu the Greathearted
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Krenko, Mob Boss
Riku of Two Reflections
Sen Triplets
Zur the Enchanter
* Damia, Sage of Stone
Rhys the Redeemed
* Sliver Overlord (5-color)

9 out of 25. Quite an underwhelming presence for Black, if I do say so.

So, I think I've sufficiently made my point. While I consider myself fortunate because EVERY card on the above list has passed through my playgroup at some point or another since we started playing EDH. I'm by no means an expert, but I can at least say that I have some idea of what I'm talking about.

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Last edited by Terris00 on 2014-Feb-04 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 4:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 6:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
Terris00 wrote:
Our group decided to ban blue because we came to a consensus that it was the most overpowered of all the colors when looked at from an EDH perspective.


Yeah, you should totally just ban a sixth of magic cards printed. Them Storm Crows you know are so OP. This statement you made totally counteracts your last that you 'know what you are taking about'. If you knew what you were talking abut, maybe you would look at what cards make blue the most played color in EDH(And pretty much every other format that I know of), look at what makes those card so played, and ban accordingly. MTG is a delicate balance of forces, and kind of like a 4 engine plane that loses an engine(color) its not going to work well.

Blue is played for 3 main reasons, card advantage, counterspells, and timewalks. Even in Legacy where Blue doesnt get the best of its toys(banned, unlike in EDH), it is still by far the most played/most powerful color.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 4:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Just a small nit-pick with your numbers:
Terris00 wrote:
14 out of 25. Nearly half the list. Again, not as bad as blue in terms of numbers. Here's the list with part-white Commanders:
* Maelstrom Wanderer (5-color)

14 out of 25. Blue is still leading in sheer numbers. Now, let's go to the last color, black.
* Maelstrom Wanderer (5-color)


Wanderer is URG so you are overstating Black & White's meagre representation, if anything.

While the list can be debated, I found the % of Red very interesting. For what a lot of people perceive as the worst EDH colour (though probably more for mono-coloured decks than as a splash) it's still outscoring White & Black.

Your breakdown is pretty much what people expect for the other colours though. Blue & Green are #1 & #2 and have been for a while.

W 52%
U 76%
B 36%
R 56%
G 64%

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:40 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Think like this: Flash isn't getting banned because it enables Protean Hulk. If a card is the base issue of a problem, do you ban the 10+ enablers to make the card feel reasonable again, or do you take out the thing that was causing the most issues? You can apply this to at least a few cards on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern
RoarMaster wrote:
Blue is played for 3 main reasons, card advantage, counterspells, and timewalks. Even in Legacy where Blue doesnt get the best of its toys(banned, unlike in EDH), it is still by far the most played/most powerful color.


So you just took the time to insult me, argued against my point, and then ended up actually AGREEING with me by the end. Okay then. You go sit at the kids' table now.

As an aside, Blue fits well within the CONTROL and COMBO deck archetypes moreso than the other colors, regardless of format. While I don't have a problem with the former, it's the latter (and the potential for abuse by unscrupulous players that have passed through our group) that we factored in during the discussions on whether or not to ban the color.

Nevertheless it's a decision that WE made, as a group. It may be extreme, but it's one that we find gives US the most fun during our games.

zimagic wrote:
Just a small nit-pick with your numbers:
Terris00 wrote:
14 out of 25. Nearly half the list. Again, not as bad as blue in terms of numbers. Here's the list with part-white Commanders:
* Maelstrom Wanderer (5-color)

14 out of 25. Blue is still leading in sheer numbers. Now, let's go to the last color, black.
* Maelstrom Wanderer (5-color)


Wanderer is URG so you are overstating Black & White's meagre representation, if anything.


Oops! My mistake. Thanks for the fact-check. I'll go and edit the original listing now.

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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 5:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 6:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
Terris00 wrote:
So you just took the time to insult me, argued against my point, and then ended up actually AGREEING with me by the end. Okay then. You go sit at the kids' table now.

As an aside, Blue fits well within the CONTROL and COMBO deck archetypes moreso than the other colors, regardless of format. While I don't have a problem with the former, it's the latter (and the potential for abuse by unscrupulous players that have passed through our group) that we factored in during the discussions on whether or not to ban the color.

Nevertheless it's a decision that WE made, as a group. It may be extreme, but it's one that we find gives US the most fun during our games.


Actually, no, I did not insult you. What I did say is that if you decide to ban a whole color, then you probably do not no what you are talking about. That is not an insult, that is me stating that you may not be as well informed as you might think you are. I did argue that that banning blue is one hell of an overreaction, but I never said that blue was not the most played/splashed/powerful color.

If your main issue as you say is that Blue enables too many combos, why not just ban combo if you are that much against it? After all, its much harder to stop combo when you dont have blue spells at your disposal, so really by banning blue you are shafting your anti-combo selection.

So yeah, thanks for insulting me(calling me childish), putting words in my mouth, and not actually responding to any of the original points that I made.


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 Post subject: Re: Sylvan Primordial? Why not Deadeye/Rite? /rant
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-29 12:39 am
Age: Wyvern
RoarMaster wrote:
Actually, no, I did not insult you. What I did say is that if you decide to ban a whole color, then you probably do not no what you are talking about. That is not an insult, that is me stating that you may not be as well informed as you might think you are. I did argue that that banning blue is one hell of an overreaction, but I never said that blue was not the most played/splashed/powerful color.

If your main issue as you say is that Blue enables too many combos, why not just ban combo if you are that much against it? After all, its much harder to stop combo when you dont have blue spells at your disposal, so really by banning blue you are shafting your anti-combo selection.

So yeah, thanks for insulting me(calling me childish), putting words in my mouth, and not actually responding to any of the original points that I made.


Let me offer my apologies for my previous remarks. That was uncalled for.

However, with regards to your original points, I did that already, so let me restate it here. Rather than banning dozens of specific cards which contribute to a combo deck archetype (our "house ban list" would be about 100 cards long in total) we decided to ban the color most responsible for the archetype. After talking about it, we decided that BLUE was the chief offender, so we just banned the color outright. It may not be the best decision from your perspective, but I will tell you that our group has no complaints at all, since none of us played combo decks to begin with.

How my group decides to play EDH is our own business. If you disagree with us, that's your prerogative.

And for the record, here are some of the Generals we use in our group:

Uril, the Miststalker - Me (straight up Voltron aggro)
Glissa, the Traitor (Voltron Aggro)
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Elf Aggro)
Mayael the Anima (Stompy Aggro)
Marath, Will of the Wild (Aggro with +1/+1 counters)
Doran, the Siege Tower (Non-blue Attrition-Control Hybrid)
Kaervek the Merciless (Black/Red Aggro-Control Hybrid)

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