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 Post subject: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-29 9:16 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
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I made an account just to comment on this card. It has far too great of an impact and is degenerate to healthy games. (Talking Edh here) This one card alone is a 7 for 1. It does too much when it comes out early. And then people start cloning it. So what usually happens is that if someone has a slow start, they get knocked completely out of the game by lands. I can't believe they'd ban primeval titan and replace it with this monstrosity. At least prime time never shot anyone's lands.

With that being said, this guy is one of my favorite creatures. Here are my favorite ways to abuse it by color:

Green: simply ramp and play it early. For consistency, use green sun's zenith, chord of calling, birthing pod and tooth and nail. If you feel like cheating, tap that elvish piper, or sac the dryad arbor or wood elves to natural order and proceed to win. Mono green also has access to mimic vat for additional douchiness.

Blue: Obvious one here, clone it. Repeatedly. My opponents crap their pants when my zegana deck gets this out early and I get an easy refill. Phantasmal image, phyrexian metamorph, clone, sakashima and her student, and progenitor mimic are my favorites. Outside of traditional clones there are games Enders like dead eye navigator and rite of replication. Bribery Also lets you cheat out an opponents primordial as early as turn 2. Almost forgot the body double once someone kills it!

Black: Derp reanimate it! Over and over and over! There are lots, reanimate, animate dead, necromancy, chained dementia master, and much much more. Entomb, buried alive, or survival of the fittest to get it into the grave easier. Mikaeus lets you do it twice too, but if your going that route might as well go infinite with the woodfall primus.

Red: Not as easy to abuse, but is very good friends with kiki jikki and splinter twin. Sneak attack lets you cheat it in for a measly 1 mana.

White: leAst abusable color. Pitch this to survival of the fittest for your karmic guide.

Conclusion: too powerful. Should say non land/ non creature permanent. If primeval titan was unbanned this wouldn't be so bad though.


Quote:
I remember that this was the last primordial spoiled. before it came out (and the other 4 were), I predicted that it would have a "destroy noncreature permanent", but I did not expect the big body and the forest ramping (and expected trample instead of reach) because I thought that popping any noncreature permanents would already be pushing the power level.

lol

With the banning of primeval titan in EDH, I believe this is the premiere creature in the format. It's hard to go wrong with a card that both is removal and ramp. It's fairly balanced for 1v1, but when you have 2+ opponents it gets ridiculous. For example, suppose it's a simple 3-way FFA, everyone is at 6 lands and there are no other noncreature permanents in play. You hit your 7th, drop him, you pop two lands and get two forests. Suddenly both of your opponents are at 5 lands and you are at 9, so you have nearly double their lands each. That's already extremely powerful, and that's at the low end of potential power. Imagine a 4-way FFA where you pop, say, gilded lotus + birthing pod + skullclamp and then fetch 3 forests. The only "balance" with the card here is that once you drop him in a multiplayer and just end up super-far ahead, the rest of the table will gang up on you.

The reason why it's so good is that it's strong no matter what point in the game it is. It's extremely reliable. For example, the other 4 primordials all have reasonable situations where they aren't actually bonkers (for example, the white and red primordial aren't good when the board was just swept, while the blue and black primordials get nerfed by graveyard hate). It's very rare for this to not be strong. Like, maybe you're up against a player with a darksteel forge out and another has double privileged position out, then it doesn't do anything, but they're pretty rare.


Quote:
Use responsibly in Multiplayer.


Quote:
I put this in a G/U Ramp deck with a bunch of ETB creatures like Sphinx of Uthuun and Borderland Ranger. In a multiplayer game, I get at least 3-5 Forests (including any shocklands such as Breeding Pool). Combined with Deadeye Navigator, I blow up everyone's land and thin out my deck. People tend to hate me after that.


Quote:
Way too good for its cost. Just a pure monster in EDH, I just got one for my Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord deck. Removes basically all threats I can't deal with otherwise. Creature removal comes easy for my deck, but non-creature removal like this plus ramp is Christmas come early.


Quote:
I really disapprove this kind of card. It's too much of a haymaker, netting a 7-for-1 advantage in casual games with 4 players. This would be acceptable if it had a real drawback. Instead, it's also a 6/8, which is humongous.

This thing really needed to be more expensive, or put the lands under the control of your opponents.


Quote:
EDH ban incoming.


Quote:
This is like some bizarre lovechild between Primeval Titan and Terastodon, and almost a suitable replacement for the former in EDH. Both abilities are quite beneficial and upside for you, and if you have blink effects, this can be abused with impunity, unlike Terastodon.


Quote:
No Prime Time, but the next best thing. Fun Rite of Replication target, can end the game with Deadeye Navigator or Progenitor Mimic.


Quote:
I would like this guy much better if he said destroy target noncreature, nonland permanent. Too often I see player 1 blow up something useful from everyone and a land of the player who's behind, player 2 clone this and blow up one of everyone else's lands, player 1 blink it and blow up more lands. Can be pretty unfun to play against in EDH.


Quote:
I imprint this on my Mimic Vat all the time and I don't even have forests to fetch.


yeah, I'd say the verdict is starting to sound pretty unanimous...

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-29 10:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Yeah, that's cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-29 10:22 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To be fair, people who comment on gatherer are not the best at critiquing cards. Then again they are complaining about Sylvan Primordial.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 2:26 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-14 11:11 pm
Age: Dragon
On MTGS has been a few pages of people hoping for a ban too. Both hardcore spikes and casual types. People are just tired of there land disappearing.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 2:32 am 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-17 1:09 pm
Age: Wyvern
Half of me wants to see it gone, That same half really only wants it gone if its value goes over 10 dollars, its currently a buck so not anytime soon lol. (I do not have one myself but a friend uses it in our group)

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 7:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I still don't think Sylvan Primordial needs to be banned, but I also don't care if it is banned.
It's an admittedly dumb card, but so are plenty of things.
If nothing else, maybe banning it would send a message to WoTC that generically overpowered "Commander Goodstuff" cards are bad for the format.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 9:05 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
We should all go on to gatherer and complain at wizards.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 9:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
If nothing else, maybe banning it would send a message to WoTC that generically overpowered "Commander Goodstuff" cards are bad for the format.



This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 9:55 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
agreed, all the cards that seem to be EDH specials are insanely stupid, in power, annoyance levels and game ruining. At least the titans are pretty decent, and I would say, 'fair'. Even Prime time IMO was not this bad, but the newer stuff is just horrible, the praetors were arguably just as bad, but at least vorinclex doesn't destroy your lands lol. I think they should just calm down and either tone down the EDH design or not bother and like Joz said, we can find our own cool stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 12:07 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Joz wrote:
kaldare wrote:
If nothing else, maybe banning it would send a message to WoTC that generically overpowered "Commander Goodstuff" cards are bad for the format.



This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.


You forgot Griselbanned, the ultmate offender of "dont print cards that are dumb in this format specifically for this format"

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 12:13 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 11:41 am
Age: Drake
Location: Under a dead Ohio sky...
Printing cool legendary creatures and supporting multiplayer games in card templating ("all opponents" vs "target opponent" when appropriate and "target player" instead of "you") is all the special treatment this format really needs. I don't think an occasional cycle of "edh cards" would hurt, but seeing them all the time just leads to a lot of similar-looking decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 12:54 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets

Exactly... though to be fair, I think they've done a pretty good job over the last year. (Ever since gatecrash.)

Gath Immortal wrote:
You forgot Griselbanned, the ultmate offender of "dont print cards that are dumb in this format specifically for this format"

I don't think Griselbrand was printed for commander. They has to know he'd show up in Legacy, and at least a little in standard and modern. (Which he did.)

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 1:26 pm 

Joined: 2013-Sep-05 6:26 am
Age: Drake
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 1:31 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.

No, Maro just hates EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 1:37 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
kaldare wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
You forgot Griselbanned, the ultmate offender of "dont print cards that are dumb in this format specifically for this format"

I don't think Griselbrand was printed for commander. They has to know he'd show up in Legacy, and at least a little in standard and modern. (Which he did.)


You guys ever try the Modern Through the Breach deck with Griselbrand and Fury of the Horde?

That deck is super fun!

Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.


Yeah, I've wondered for a while if SyPrime was an R&D mistake... maybe they felt like there wasn't enough space for the may/up-to template, or maybe they thought it would be easier to prevent the trigger from going on the stack, or maybe it just had some last minute changes.

Whatever the case, I don't think they intended for it to play the way it does.

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