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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-18 10:58 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-20 1:07 pm
Age: Drake
RobPro wrote:

That requires you to have two specific cards in a singleton format.


I don't know if there is an attiutide or train of thought I hate about EDH mre than this one. Does nobody understand how consistant a well built EDH is? Demonic tutor, vampiric, mystical, enlightned, mystical teachings, gifts ungiven, intuition, tezzeret, etc. If you want to find a specific card in your deck, you should have plenty of ways to do it. When you are talking about an atrifact and a blue card it becomes infinitly easyer to accomplish.

How hard is it to perform the flash combo, and time vault, and bobmerman, etc.? I love the Mirror, but I understand how degenerate it is. The mirror is far more degenerate than it is fun.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-19 7:35 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
Drain Life wrote:
How hard is it to perform the flash combo, and time vault, and bobmerman, etc.? I love the Mirror, but I understand how degenerate it is. The mirror is far more degenerate than it is fun.


Agree to disagree, I suppose. ;)

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-19 11:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
RobPro, even though I spent most of this thread disagreeing with you I still think it's important that we constantly evaluate what is and isn't on the banned list. Healthy discussion is a good thing and thanks for your input on this.

Just so we're clear, I'm a big fan of Panoptic Mirror and have been since it was printed. But that actually might make me value it more highly than you.

One of my favorite things to do 'way back when' was Panoptic Mirror with Reap and Sow / Plow Under / Creeping Mold. All of that was in Standard at one point. It was a fairly bad deck (Panoptic was the definition of 'win more' in there) but was a real morale crusher if you were playing a slower deck.

Fun Fact: Extra costs can be paid when playing a spell from a Panoptic Mirror. Kicker, Entwine, Splice onto Arcane, etc.

And no, I don't really think that has anything to do with EDH. :)


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-19 3:01 pm 
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tarnar wrote:
Just so we're clear, I'm a big fan of Panoptic Mirror and have been since it was printed. But that actually might make me value it more highly than you.


You probably do. I think the card is worthless (in terms of competitiveness) and wouldn't run it in any of my decks, so I don't see why it should be banned. 8)

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-19 5:44 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RobPro wrote:
I think the card is worthless (in terms of competitiveness) and wouldn't run it in any of my decks


Well bravo to you, sir, where a 5 colorless mana recursion engine is meaningless. If run, it's almost always run with the correct combo, and every deck runs blue that's competitive so I think you know where I'm going with this. It's not like you imprint when it comes into play you do it at instant speed EOT so recursion artifact, blue, yeah it's broken.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-19 6:27 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
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warble wrote:
RobPro wrote:
I think the card is worthless (in terms of competitiveness) and wouldn't run it in any of my decks


Well bravo to you, sir, where a 5 colorless mana recursion engine is meaningless. If run, it's almost always run with the correct combo, and every deck runs blue that's competitive so I think you know where I'm going with this. It's not like you imprint when it comes into play you do it at instant speed EOT so recursion artifact, blue, yeah it's broken.


I stand by what I said, so I'll just agree to disagree with you. I am not saying you cannot do powerful things with it, but I don't think it is a broken combo enabler and there are many ways to deal with it.

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 Post subject: Mirror
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-25 7:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-25 7:36 am
Age: Wyvern
After having played with panoptic mirror for a while in a deck (before I realized it was banned)...I can agree that it should probably be banned. The ability to copy ANY sorcery every turn is really stupid.

Things like Wrath and Damnation are "unfun".
Things that give you extra turns are "instant wins".
Things that you don't even think of, like tutoring effects are unbalanced like crazy (imagine Demonic tutor every turn, PLUS card draw).

The mirror produces situations that aren't in the spirit of EDH. Nasty combos are one thing, but not allowing a player to do anything else, isn't enjoyable.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-25 11:40 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
It's kind of ironic, because I was thinking of weird/fun spells to put onto the Mirror, and every time I tested with that spell, I would ask myself why not just put Time Stretch (or some other game-winner) because it's more efficient and actually puts you in a winning direction. Then the thought process becomes degenerate, and I give up on it.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-25 2:44 pm 
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Doraemon wrote:
why not just put Time Stretch (or some other game-winner) because it's more efficient


That's why, when it was legal, it was only run in my monoblack deck, and I only used it to find the Kaldra pieces to beat face in a dangerous fashion. See...you can run it sub-optimally and have lots of fun...but banlists aren't made for people who make sub-optimal lists and have all this fun...darn combo players ruinin the format! Well...I did imprint pox on it once...


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-25 3:07 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
warble wrote:
Doraemon wrote:
why not just put Time Stretch (or some other game-winner) because it's more efficient


That's why, when it was legal, it was only run in my monoblack deck, and I only used it to find the Kaldra pieces to beat face in a dangerous fashion. See...you can run it sub-optimally and have lots of fun...but banlists aren't made for people who make sub-optimal lists and have all this fun...darn combo players ruinin the format! Well...I did imprint pox on it once...


I wouldnt have a problem with people playing the Mirror if they did fun stuf with it. One of my friends id definitly let play it, another no way in hell..... its all about fun. If you have a fun way to do something thats bending the rules a little, fine. It is a good idea to keep this on the banned list though IMO, since it can lead to degenerate combo's.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-25 8:07 pm 
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that was my problem with it...the "fun stuff" wasn't going anywhere. It's like having a Reveillark bring back useless creatures when you know clear well that it could have brought back something that actually put you in a position to win the game.

I know of other ppl who could have played something fun but not broken on the Mirror, but it's not something that I would do.

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