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 Post subject: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 2:34 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-21 7:15 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Philly
So I've been playing since about 2 years before the Precons came out and I'm sure I was aware and read about trade secrets before but I have seriously never seen anyone play it or consider playing it in any of my or my friend's incredibly competitive multi-player decks.

However, the reason that they gave for the banning is incredibly familiar to me, because having my consecrated sphinx cloned or copied has had that result numerous times.

Is it because sphinx is a dude, costs 6 instead of 3, or that you need two sphinxes to break the game in half? Every blue deck in Philly runs one of these bad boys and copying and cloning are cheap and powerful strategies that run rampant.

I guess I don't disagree with this ban (doesn't affect me or anyone I know//play with) but I just feel like the Sphinx deserves the ban for the exact same reason. Anyone agree or disagree?

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 2:38 am 
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Joined: 2011-Oct-31 7:06 pm
Age: Dragon
Momar Vig wrote:
Is it because sphinx is a dude, costs 6 instead of 3, or that you need two sphinxes to break the game in half? Every blue deck in Philly runs one of these bad boys and copying and cloning are cheap and powerful strategies that run rampant.


Pretty much this. Sphinx can be dealt with and requires more set up. Trade Secrets can only be stopped by blue/not being dumb or selfish. The card is collusion incarnate.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 2:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-11 4:07 pm
Age: Hatchling
Consecrated Sphinx creates the exact same gamestate when cloned or copied and is much more commonly played.

Maybe because its a creature they thought it was OK? Or maybe banning trade secrets was a not-so-subtle way to tell us Sphinx will be getting ban-hammered soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 3:22 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Off the record, we had a loooong talk about Consecrated Sphinx, and we were very much split on it. We don't need a unanimous vote to ban or unban a card, but the RC as a whole as to be clearly in favour of a change before we implement it, and we were pretty close to 50/50. Consecrated Sphinx didn't get banned, but naturally any card that powerful will receive regular attention from us.

For the record, the reason why we felt Trade Secrets is bannable but Sphinx is not is mostly because Trade Secrets doesn't add any value to the format. Both cards can be really disruptive to a match, especially if they're used unfairly, but Sphinx is well-loved by a lot of players while no one really cares about Trade Secrets. Whether or not Sphinx is too good is certainly debatable, but having powerful threats is a good thing in EDH and the card is certainly unique in that regard. Trade Secrets, on the other hand, can be replaced by a common from almost any block.


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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 3:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Momar Vig wrote:
Is it because sphinx is a dude, costs 6 instead of 3, or that you need two sphinxes to break the game in half?


Also, all these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 3:59 am 
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yes, all those things too


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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 4:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Sort of awkward that it's a card from the Commander product.

I totally support the ban. In the small number of times I've seen Trade Secrets resolve it has either been a dud (when other players are wise enough to make it one) or it has just ended games on the spot.

In no case did it make for fun and memorable games, only the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 5:36 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
If a group can't socially manage the casting of trade secrets edh might be too hard for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 6:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
If a group can't socially manage the casting of trade secrets edh might be too hard for them.

Or people who play outside a normal group see the ability to elimenat all opponents for 1UU.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 6:41 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-13 6:07 am
Age: Drake
I remember having it from the commander product.

I used it a couple times and realized it just wasn't worth giving my opponent that many cards but I agree with its banning (and on an offhanded note) am glad to see staff unbanned.

The thing is for three mana it potentially wins games and puts two players at an overwhelming advantage. When it resolves everyone else is left with their normal hand sizes but the two participating players have their maximum hand size card(s) in hand and have a hand size of 30 to 40+ generally.

Three mana.... yea not appropriately costed for social multiplayer formats and promotes degenerate board states.


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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 6:48 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Trade Secrets was actually the first card I ever cut from my Group Hug deck. The first or second time I cast it, thinking I was helping someone get back in the game after being picked on, they drew 30 cards and just won that turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 9:35 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-21 7:15 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Philly
Ban Ki-Moon, thanks for your awesome answer, its great to hear a totally legitimate reason pitched from someone who cares about the format.

I know I'd be sad to take it from my Momir Vig Deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 10:59 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tarnar wrote:
Sort of awkward that it's a card from the Commander product.

Well, it's IN the commander precons, but the original printing was in Onslaught.

It has seen a fair amount of play at my LGS, and I will have to remove it from a deck. It's not a big loss or anything, but it is true that it can horribly destabilize a game. A good rule of thumb with it was never EVER to target another blue player with it. Seriously. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 11:34 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
My personal opinion:

Consecrated Sphinx is fundamentally sort of fair in that it can be stopped by commonly-played removal spells with no gain made. From a pure power perspective, I don't think it's banworthy.

But I am starting to get sick of the card. If it's still the format's scariest creature in a year, I may be in favor of banning it. Games are less fun when every blue deck has one and it's always the best target for tutors, removal, theft, copying, and recursion.

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 Post subject: Re: Did anyone else have to look up Trade Secrets?
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-22 11:39 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
MRHblue wrote:
niheloim wrote:
If a group can't socially manage the casting of trade secrets edh might be too hard for them.

Or people who play outside a normal group see the ability to elimenat all opponents for 1UU.

you mean all but 1? Its still socially governed. You don't know the decks your playing so why open up the chance to just get beaten by one of them?

Its fundamentally a bad card except in groups that are socially governed. I honestly can't believe people are playing it against unknowns... (edit) with any level of consistency.

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