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 Post subject: Panoptic Mirror
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 7:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Hello,

I just was interested in knowing: What particular interaction(s) caused the Banning of Panoptic Mirror?

I know it's a powerful card, but in a format in which you have to account for powerful artifacts as much as EDH seems to (at least in my play group) and the fact that you can't get the benefit of it before removing another card in your hand from the game and have a ok chance of getting 2 for 1ed. It just seems like I'm missing something big.

Please let me know. :-)

This is not me trying to get it unbanned. I suspect there is a good reason for the banning. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning, that's all.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 8:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
to many broken combo's example timewarp = win if you can't kill this artifact this turn - and the list goes on and on and on.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 9:44 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
odit wrote:
to many broken combo's example timewarp = win if you can't kill this artifact this turn - and the list goes on and on and on.


There are easier ways to win that require less mana than this to pull off, and players have a full turn rotation to respond to any Panoptic Mirror combos (unless someone has spent even more time/mana setting the board up to make this difficult).

I really don't see why this card is banned either.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:00 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
hmm ?

12/1/2004 You may imprint a card on Panoptic Mirror in response to the upkeep-triggered ability. If you do, that card is available to copy when the triggered ability resolves.

I play a mirror - you get a turn ot break a mirror I untap upkeep - imprint warp ( one of many broken things ) etc

That's 5 mana ? 2 cards


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:08 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
That makes sense to me. In a format where there are multiple take another turn spells, it is too crazy to let be around. I know the Mirror was really good.

I didn't realize you could respond to the ability to play a card imprinted on the mirror. :oops:

That being said: I'm really glad they banned this even though I have one. :-)


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:17 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
odit wrote:
hmm ?

12/1/2004 You may imprint a card on Panoptic Mirror in response to the upkeep-triggered ability. If you do, that card is available to copy when the triggered ability resolves.

I play a mirror - you get a turn ot break a mirror I untap upkeep - imprint warp ( one of many broken things ) etc

That's 5 mana ? 2 cards


That requires you to have two specific cards in a singleton format. In a multiplayer game, if nobody can deal with it before you get your turn, they should make their decks more agile. Everyone should have a few ways to destroy an artifact or bounce a permanent.

In a duel, if you are in a position to play this card and not lose, I would say you had already won before you resolved the combo. Either way, it is nothing that is impossible to deal with and there are things you could do with your mana that are harder to disrupt.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:29 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
There are over 1000 sorceries that can be imprinted on a Mirror. Roughly 90% of them cost 5 or less mana, meaning roughly 90% of sorceries in the game can be imprinted the turn after the Mirror comes down.

Most of them suck.

But there's a few broken ones in there. Like three Time Warps. Go up to 6 mana and you get another Time Warp. Go up to 8 mana, get another one. 10 mana, you get another one.

Plus a few conditional ones (Stitch in Time, Temporal Extortion, Savor the Moment)

So there's some redundancy. And if you don't have the Time Warp then you just imprint something else that's good. Like a tutor so you win a turn later. Or something to draw a bunch of cards. Or a sweeper. You have 1000 cards to choose from and you get to play one of them for free every turn forever. You'll find something broken.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
It may be a 2 card combo, but it's a two card combo in a color that can find the artifact pretty easily (Blue has some good artifact search). Also a couple of sorcery search (Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor). This doesn't even count if you are playing multicolored and can search with Enlightened, Vampiric, etc.

It's about as unfun a combo as you can get. Combo's in EDH that only require two cards and only allow you to stop one part of the combo can't be fun to play against. I think that's the reason CoW is banned (even though it could have been Strip Mine or Fastbond just as easily).

While it would be fun to play with the mirror, the chance of it just not being fun to play against is pretty large.

That being said, I run a ton of artifact removal in my EDH decks due to the high amount of equipment running around in my playgroup. I wouldn't be surprised if I or someone else at the tabe has an artifact removal spell when the player tries to go off on the infinate turn wagon. At a table with a decent amount of artifact hate, the player with the combo is going to have a tough time not getting two for oned.

If we really though it was a problem for it to be banned we would unban it in our playgroup. I don't think it's bad to be banned because of the potential (especially in 1v1) for it to just be a killer of fun at the table.


Last edited by Ximenus on 2009-Feb-17 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:38 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Why do people make it out like it is hard to have a specific card each game in a singleton format?
Tutors, card draw, etc etc etc No lie, EVERY GAME with my Sharuum deck I see Titan/Slaver.
You can make a deck that consistently does what you want it to every time, it really isn't that hard.

Panoptic Mirror isn't just for turn taking effects, either.
Stick Wrath/Damnation on one and you'll have some very very angry people.
How about Armageddon or Devastation? CATACLYSM? As long as you have artifact mana out, you are fine.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 10:54 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
...you do realize how much mana it takes to pull those combos off, right? If you are accelerating into the mana to easily cast the Mirror and tutor up a good card to imprint, you could already win the game on your turn. All Mirror does is give your opponents time to deal with it/stop you before you can win, whereas many other combos aren't as courteous.

For all the cards you could imprint, there are dozens of instants and sorceries (socerys?) that destroy artifacts or bounce permanents. Spending 7 mana to do a Demonic Tutor seems like a bad deal to me, it would take you 3 turns to get 2 uses out of it and 2 more to make the mana back, I would rather just play it for its regular cost.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 11:07 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
RobPro wrote:
If you are accelerating into the mana to easily cast the Mirror and tutor up a good card to imprint, you could already win the game on your turn.

What other legal two card combo is comparable to this? What other 5 mana permanent wins you the game simply by surviving one set of turns?


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 11:32 am 
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Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
tarnar wrote:
RobPro wrote:
If you are accelerating into the mana to easily cast the Mirror and tutor up a good card to imprint, you could already win the game on your turn.

What other legal two card combo is comparable to this? What other 5 mana permanent wins you the game simply by surviving one set of turns?


But it's not a two card combo. It's, at the very minimum, a 7 card combo unless you count on having mana sources that produce more than one mana.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 11:48 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
RobPro wrote:
But it's not a two card combo. It's, at the very minimum, a 7 card combo unless you count on having mana sources that produce more than one mana.

...
...
I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 11:49 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
LOL you don't count lands as cards in a combo.
Simple as that. PANOPTIC MIRROR + TIME WARP = 2 CARDS

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 11:52 am 
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yawg07 wrote:
LOL you don't count lands as cards in a combo.
Simple as that. PANOPTIC MIRROR + TIME WARP = 2 CARDS


Uh, you really posted this?

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