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 Post subject: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-14 10:28 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-22 9:09 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Nebraska
Perhaps this is a stupid question but why is Upheaval banned?

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-14 11:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-17 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Because you can float mana the return everyones permanets then play things so you have permanents and nobody else does. Then they have to discard a bunch of cards which puts you at a huge advantage. Not only does it do all this, but it is also blue. So there you go.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-14 12:00 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-22 9:09 pm
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Location: Nebraska
That seems like a mostly unhelpful explanation.

You can float mana with a number of cards and have nearly the same effect.

Obliterate
Decree of Annihilation
Jokulhaups

Really...any board wipe.

And the fact that it's blue is most likely not why it's banned.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-14 2:03 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
The issue is only partially that its a board wipe, but more so that the upheavel caster has the chance to drop a bunch of their permanents again prior to the end of turn. This not only gives them an advantage with time, but they will have a hand full of business spells. Where as the opponents all get to drop a land, and say go.

Obliterate does do something similar, however the caster doesnt suddenly find themselves with a 20 card hand. They are far more limited in what they have to cast. Here they may only get 1 or 2 things down.

And the fact that it is blue is relevent to a point, since a blue player will be able to much more effectively prevent any threats against their plan from landing then a red player.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-14 2:40 pm 
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Location: Nebraska
That seems like a much more helpful explanation. Thank you very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-06 12:57 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jun-06 12:40 pm
Age: Hatchling
Nirvana wrote:
The issue is only partially that its a board wipe, but more so that the upheavel caster has the chance to drop a bunch of their permanents again prior to the end of turn. This not only gives them an advantage with time, but they will have a hand full of business spells. Where as the opponents all get to drop a land, and say go.

Obliterate does do something similar, however the caster doesnt suddenly find themselves with a 20 card hand. They are far more limited in what they have to cast. Here they may only get 1 or 2 things down.

And the fact that it is blue is relevent to a point, since a blue player will be able to much more effectively prevent any threats against their plan from landing then a red player.


I don't understand why this is sufficient cause to ban upheaval and not ban obliterate.

If someone casts obliterate and pools mana, they will still have up to 6 cards in hand to cast. Even resolving a single large threat will probably win them the game considering that everyone else will have nothing in play. It doesn't matter how many cards they have in their hand because they only need to land a single threat.

Upheaval is actually less disruptive than obliterate. With upheaval, everyone has their lands, artifact mana, and other permanents bounced. They can start rebuilding their board position immediately, and players don't have to discard until the end of their turn. Basically, you're starting your turn with all your land, artifact mana, and stuff in your hand. You can probably play a land, some kind of artifact, and then discard down to 7. You're basically guaranteed to never miss a land drop and you get to keep all your artifact mana. If the upheaval caster plays a threat after pooling mana, it's much easier to deal with because after one turn everyone is guaranteed to have a land in play, and after two turns, everyone is guaranteed to have at least two land in play plus whatever artifact mana they had before.

Compare this to obliterate, where you lose everything except enchantments. Unless you were holding land preemptively, the only way to make land drops is to topdeck them, which is at best a 50% chance each turn. That means on average, it will take you four turns to get two land in play. Also, you have no artifact mana or even cards to cast with that much mana unless you were preemptively saving those as well. If the obliterate caster pools mana and plays a threat, it is much harder to deal with since everyone else is basically mana screwed. The obliterate caster won't get all his stuff back in his hand, but that hardly matters. They will probably be able to secretly save at least one land drop, and they still have about 5 cards in hand to choose a threat from. The point is that when everyone else is completely mana screwed, any reasonable threat can win the game.

Upheaval being blue doesn't really matter because many players use multicolored decks anyway. Also, obliterate is uncounterable, so it doesn't even need to be protected in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 6:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
...I've always kind of taken it for granted that upheaval was banned... But suddenly I'm unsure why it's so much worse then Jokulhaups or Obliterate that it needs to be banned. If you drop ONE threat with a Jokulhaups or Obliterate, you'll could win off that alone, since your opponents could quite easily be stuck trying to topdecks lands AND answers.

Compare this to Upheaval, where one threat is just a good boost, not game ending, since your opponents will all be guaranteed to have land, as well as any artifact accel they had before to recover with. Not to mention, to be worth it, it's prolly going to require around 12 mana, and as I've heard people (including RC members) tell me 100 times on this board, if it costs that much mana, it SHOULD have a huge impact on winning you the game.

Heck, Obliterate is even uncounterable. If it's seriously because upheaval is blue... well, I'll just assume and hope that's not the case.

Now I'm guessing Upheavel got the banhammer for wreaking an RC member's day one too many times, whereas no one in their group happened to play Jokulhaups/Obliterate.

Anyway, that's my 10 cents. Either unban upheaval, or ban all mass destruction effects... and I'm pretty sure option 2 is not gonna happen.
...Or perhaps I'm missing some other reason Upheaval is banned and they're not... If so, please enlighten me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 6:42 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
When I first started playing EDH I hadden't noticed Upheaval on the banned list, cause well, I saw no sort of brokenness in it.

I build a Niv-Mizzet deck that generated a ton of artifact mana and used blue draw spells ftw. The occasional Upheaval did usually mean a win for me. I would generate 20 mana, cast upheaval, recast all my artifact mana and then cast more stuff. After having done this twice my friend kindly pointed out to me I was playing with a banned card. I understood now.

Haups says: "lets start again". Upheaval says: "I win".

If you don't get it, build a Blue/Brown deck and play it. You'll get it :wink: .

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 7:55 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-06 8:31 am
Age: Drake
Location: UK
As the others have said the only reason it is banned is because it's blue. Blue is good. Red is not, so it gets away with similar effects. Although when they're paired together in Jhoira it can be very effective, but that's easily solved. With a brick. And their head.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 8:12 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
The major sin of Upheaval is the returning of the cards to hand, giving you the opportunity to play the stuff again. Obliterate *might* have stuff to cast, but it's not a given like with Upheaval. Additionally, we saw Upheaval actually warping the format, where there hasn't been such evidence with Obliterate--quite possibly, as a few folks have pointed out, because of the strength of Blue and the weakness of Red in the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 9:14 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Not to mention Upheaval slows the game down like a MF. At least when someone casts Obliterate or other varients, they usually have a Planeswalker to actually win the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 9:24 am 

Joined: 2010-Jan-08 11:09 pm
Age: Drake
In the immortal words, "Upheaval, floating three."


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 10:41 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
T3hDarkness wrote:
In the immortal words, "Upheaval, floating three."

Floating three for what?


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 10:42 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-26 5:45 pm
Age: Dragon
When upheaval was banned, you could go:
tapping islands, tap tolarian academy for a lot of mana, upheaval.
Cast all those artifacts you just returned to hand, play tolarian academy, add a bunch of mana, replay whatever other cards you wanted to cast, go:


Basically, in the days of tolarian academy, it could be almost entirely one sided. Without tolarian academy, its still very good, and can do similar stuff, but its not quite as powerful.

People can still cast apocalypse and then their general, but its just not nearly the same as having all those other permanents to back it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 11:51 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Yeah, it's really not hard to set up a situation where you get your entire board position back after casting Upheaval. It's not even that expensive. It's also not that hard to do mean things like casting it under Memory Jar (during the Jar hand). It's cheeper than Obliterate as well. If it were unbanned it run it instead of almost any other sweeper. It's gross. Anyone ever play the old 'Tog decks that actually ran the thing in tournament formats? The card is busted and deserves to be banned.

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