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 Post subject: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 7:03 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-21 9:47 am
Age: Drake
Location: Hongen, Germany
So, I have read your threads about how you compute the banning of certain cards and generally agree, but your decisions of late seem... well... quite flawed. I understand banning a card because it makes the game unfun like painters servant or the spaghetti monster. I understand banning a card because of the autowin feature like biorhythm or coalition victory. I understand banning a card because of a specialized role in EDH like karakas. I even support the banning of the commanders. However banning a card because it plays a big role in EDH seems... well... uh... that you enjoy making bad decisions. hey that fire looks hot lets touch it! fire hot tarzan! fire hot!

I mean get real if you are going to take a stance on something like fast mana then do it... like tolarian academy, and serra sanctum, and cabal coffers, and especially gaea's cradle. I think it is a silly decision because if they invest that much focus on enchantments, creatures or artifacts then give them a card, that makes you feel like all this is AWESOME when it comes together!.

I totally disagree with prime time sure he was a huge impact but sometimes he is just what you needed to get back in to the game. For instance in my skullbriar deck i have 2 tutors one being Rune-scared Demon and the other being Chord of Calling, I am a big fan of embracing the chaos. Sure I could load it up with all sorts of tutors or really go hard with a glissa build but the fact is I didn't. what I am saying is let people/ their groups make the card choices and maybe include what other groups have to say outside of yours! There are lots of cards out their that make a huge impact on the game and banning them all is ridiculous and quite unfun AND NOT EMBRACING THE CHAOS.

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Biorhythm
Black Lotus
Coalition Victory
Channel FAIL
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fastbond
Gifts Ungiven
Karakas
Library of Alexandria
Limited Resources
Metalworker
Sundering Titan
Primeval Titan (*New*) FAIL
Mox Sapphire, Ruby, Pearl, Emerald and Jet
Painter's Servant
Panoptic Mirror
Protean Hulk
Recurring Nightmare
Staff of Domination
Sway of the Stars
Time Vault
Time Walk
Tinker
Tolarian Academy FAIL
Upheaval
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Griselbrand
Worldfire (*New*)

Additionally the following legends may not be used as a Commander:

Braids, Cabal Minion
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Kokusho, the Evening Star

Just my 2 cents guys nothing personal.

I know that I could just use my own house rules but the best way to help others learn the game is to have a solid go to guide like this. I am just trying to make your decisions a little more solid.
Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 11:12 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm not sure you made a point ?

Why would you unban prime titan ?

Is your logic is I'd unban prime titan because I don't run that many tutors ?

As with all cards if your play group want to include them go for it. Pesonally if prime titan had said "basic lands " or "forests" I doubt we'd be at this point. But he doesn't he's the best land ramp spell in exisrance tied into a color that tutors for critters. and that's before you add other colors.

I put him with sundering titan - not all that sad to see him go.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 12:14 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As odit said, you're not providing an objective reason WHY you think it was a mistake to ban Primeval Titan. If you really want them to do anything more than skim your post, you need to a) give multiple objective reasons why he is not bad for the format as a counterpoint for the multiple reasons people have stated as to why he IS bad; b) change the manner in which you approach the subject (hint: telling them they make bad decisions with a tone that implies stupidity doesn't work), and c) read one of the numerous threads that have been beaten to death and post there, since you're not actually saying anything new.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 1:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Your list shows that you think the banning of Tolarian Academy was a bigger mistake then the banning of Painter's Servant, Protean Hulk, and Staff of Domination. Not going to go into why I think those bannings are a mistake, but seriously, you'd rather have Academy then any of those? Aren't Sharuum and Arcum and Memnarch stupid good enough already?

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 3:07 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Hey, you know what would be awesome? Unbanning Primeval Titan and Tolarian Academy at the same time.

Wouldn't that be fun?! Right guys? Guys?

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http://www.commandercast.com/category/a ... y-speaking

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 3:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Platinum_Emperion wrote:
I totally disagree with prime time sure he was a huge impact but sometimes he is just what you needed to get back in to the game.

So it's good enough to turn a game around on it's own.

Quote:
Channel FAIL
Primeval Titan (*New*) FAIL
Tolarian Academy FAIL
...
Just my 2 cents guys nothing personal.

Paraphrased: "I wish to disagree with you in an insulting fashion but it's nothing personal."

I disagree with your description of the Academy and Channel bans as 'fail'.

Channel is a card that both provides fast mana and gets a huge power increase in a 40 life format.
Academy is a card that provides fast mana with much greater resilience than it's contemporaries (Serra Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle) and does it in the colour that artifacts love most.

Simply describing their banned status as 'fail' provides no real argument against these points. It neither describes your position nor does it stand up to the established position about the power level of these cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-21 9:47 am
Age: Drake
Location: Hongen, Germany
odit wrote:
I'm not sure you made a point ?

Why would you unban prime titan ?


cryogen wrote:
As odit said, you're not providing an objective reason WHY you think it was a mistake to ban Primeval Titan.


Because you missed it the first time, it is not a difficult concept

There are lots of cards out their that make a huge impact on the game and banning them all is ridiculous and quite unfun AND NOT EMBRACING THE CHAOS.


Your right I should present point and counter point but there are plenty of threads out there for that I just wanted a simple piece of logic to be heard.

tarnar wrote:
Platinum_Emperion wrote:
I totally disagree with prime time sure he was a huge impact but sometimes he is just what you needed to get back in to the game.

So it's good enough to turn a game around on it's own.

Quote:
Channel FAIL
Primeval Titan (*New*) FAIL
Tolarian Academy FAIL

I disagree with your description of the Academy and Channel bans as 'fail'.

Channel is a card that both provides fast mana and gets a huge power increase in a 40 life format.
Academy is a card that provides fast mana with much greater resilience than it's contemporaries (Serra Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle) and does it in the colour that artifacts love most.


I guess I am the only one who is not afraid of fast mana. The main point should be channel does nothing by itself and its really funny when someone channels for 39 and dies to a lightning bolt! seen it happen, loved it! Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy are the same thing no matter how you slice it people just hate on blue.

If someone is going to build a douche deck banning tolarian academy or channel is not going to stop them and banning every douche card is unrealistic.

My message is if you are going to ban something be consistent... if you ban Prime Time ban Consecrated Sphinx as well and every other dude that turns games around. Sometimes its nice to have an ace in the hole. I mean otherwise why use a Sword of Fire and Ice over a Bone Saw. So the logic behind banning prime time is? he is good? well that seems totally logical.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:47 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Channel may have been "OK" back in the day before the Eldrazi, but they have made it far, far, far too broken to allow in EDH anymore. Aaaah the simple joys of losing for no reason when Channel AND Rofellos were both playable. Either you had immediate kill for Rofellos or countered/discard Channel OR YOU LOST. They just used one of a gazillion creature tutors to get out Emrakul and it was the end. No Emrakul? Just get Kozilek or Ulamog and draw 4/vindicate then explode your opponent. Not playing Eldrazi? No problem, just use that extra life until end of turn to ramp or play bombs that will render the life loss irrelevant.

Dear RC,

We know you aren't freaking morons. They fine re is more than one member, ensuring checks and balances. There is a vote, ensuring no whim bans. Just keep doing what you're doing, using the forums as information source and playgroups as another. We really, really, really don't need to be unbanning Channel, Academy, Prime Time and so on.

Also, Sol Ring doesn't need Ban action when it dovetails so well with the Commander Tax. Mana Crypt is likely fine too.

Holy fraggles people, stop getting on the RC every thread/subforum, they aren't monsters, they do not work in a vaccuum and they really do have the format's best interests at heart.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 12:40 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
*reads opening post thoroughly*

...

*decides to skim over thread*

Basically the argument is "These cards are so 'DUH' to be not banned I won't actually explain why they should be unbanned". Which pretty much becomes "I'm too lazy to form a more valid debate" with "so unban the cards or the Rules Committee are hypocrites" tagged onto the end. :facepalm:

Can we just get one dedicated thread for all these "WAAAA You banned Prime Time" threads and delete/merge the others? It's probably the most contentious banning in recent history for EDH and it's seeping everywhere.

_________________
A few of my EDH Generals:
~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 4:53 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm paraphrasing the first post nicely....

"WAAAAAHAHHAAAAA!!! WAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! !MOMEEY!!!!!!!!!!"


ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 5:57 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Platinum_Emperion wrote:
My message is if you are going to ban something be consistent...


If that was your intention, you could've put it a bit more eloquent. Putting Tolarian Academy up for unbanning makes anything you write rather suspect. Anyway, Sheldon wrote about the banning process, if you have anything against the ban list that article seems like a nice starting point.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 6:15 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
I guess I am the only one who is not afraid of fast mana. The main point should be channel does nothing by itself and its really funny when someone channels for 39 and dies to a lightning bolt! seen it happen, loved it!


I love turn 1 eldrazi ... no in all seriousness until eldrazi were released channel wasn't that bad because of the color requirements of the spells. Example channel exanginate, great stuff .. but you need 2 x green and 2 x black. With the eldrazi being printed yah ... talk about the ability to lock folks out of the game.

Quote:
Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy are the same thing no matter how you slice it people just hate on blue.


I personally was sad to when T.A. was banned, but if you think it and gaea's crable are on the same power level you're smokeing way to much crack. I can't count the number of times I dropped sunder, then my t.a , then a timespiral effect to flip a game on it's side. Vs. Gaea's cradle that spends most of the time not tapping for mana .... I actually can't remember the last time I put a cradle in a deck was.

It's like saying Upheaval, and Obliterate are the same card.... Sure in a vacuum they're pretty close but add how they really effect the game ?


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 5:51 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Sinis wrote:
Hey, you know what would be awesome? Unbanning Primeval Titan and Tolarian Academy at the same time.

Wouldn't that be fun?! Right guys? Guys?


...Why do you want to see a grown man cry? Because I'm definitely crying at even the prospect of this. Not cool, man. Not cool.

Platinum_Emperion wrote:
Stuff


People have already chimed in on why thinking Channel and Academy should be unbanned is insane, so briefly: thinking Channel and Academy should be unbanned is insane. There is, I think, room for legitimate disagreement on Prime Time, but the artifact-based combo decks REALLY don't need the extra help with mana acceleration, and Turn 1 Eldrazi is not fun for *anyone*.

(Brief aside: When I say 'not fun for anyone' I include the person who cast the turn 1 Ulamog. Hurray, you won the game before it even got started! Your prize is... nothing, because it's a casual format. The format is so obviously broken that the mindset of taking singleminded advantage of easy win conditions such as Channel/Eldrazi or Mycosynth Lattice/Academy is alien to me. There's just no challenge to it, which is incidentally also why I am less sad than I could be that Primeval Titan has been banned. Anyway.)

My own understanding of the Banned List is that it is intended for situations, e.g. on MTGO and Cockatrice or at Gen Con, where you don't know your opponents and have to have some sort of baseline to keep the game from degenerating into "who can get their combo out first" (It still DOES do that, but less often than it otherwise would). In a world where you have a consistent playgroup, there's nothing keeping you from playing Primeval Titan or Tolarian Academy or Emrakul, so long as your group agrees (I play Protean Hulk in my Savra deck with my local playgroup because I don't think there actually *are* any degenerate combos it can fetch in that deck). If you go to your playgroup with house rules and they are in favor of keeping a card on the list, that should tell you something right there about how "fun" the card in question actually is.

ETA:
Platinum_Emperion wrote:
I guess I am the only one who is not afraid of fast mana. The main point should be channel does nothing by itself and its really funny when someone channels for 39 and dies to a lightning bolt! seen it happen, loved it!


I've done this!... Because I *happened* to have the Bolt in hand. Almost every other time I played against that particular deck I got smushed into paste, because I *didn't* have the Bolt in hand and didn't feel like adapting my deck with cards I wouldn't otherwise play to deal with the guy who Channel-Emrakuls by turn 3 every single game. The fact that I even considered adapting my deck in this manner suggests just how warping that particular combo was. (Then again, I have at least two decks whose themes are roughly approximated as "sociopathy" and "spite", so maybe not.)

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Animar: All-Creatures, All The Time (Silly stompy-aggro)
Sen Triplets: Robots! (Proliferate Control/Combo)
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gaijinguy wrote:
As for blue- being boring/infuriating by crushing everyone else's fun until it assembles a cheeseball combo is pretty much what it DOES.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 9:49 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Platinum_Emperion wrote:
[Your right I should present point and counter point but there are plenty of threads out there for that I just wanted a simple piece of logic to be heard.
We are still waiting.

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niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Dear Rules committee...
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 9:52 am 

Joined: 2012-Jan-09 9:37 am
Age: Wyvern
This thread FAILS.

Nothing personal. :P


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