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 Post subject: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 1:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The quarter just came up, and Kokusho can join the army as long as he doesn't lead it, while Primeval Titan and Worldfire got the boot. Now it's time for us EDH players to talk about what cards we want to get off/on next quarter!

(note: I will ignore and look down upon those who ask for the unbanning of PT or banning of Koko. The RC had their reasons for this, and they will see if they've been wrong about either.)

CARDS TO COME OFF:

1. Painter's Servant: Painter's Servant gives more good then it takes away. It works negatively with color hosers (commonly seen as dick cards), Iona, (also considered a dick card), and Grindstone (which is unplayable otherwise and isn't even as sure victory). However, legit awesome cards it helps include all ten minor guild leaders, the five Invasion Dragons (now that I think about it, pretty much every card from Invasion), and a bunch of Timmy EDH cards like Regal Force. Essentially, it helps dick cards be more dickish, and helps non-dick cards be awesome.

2. Protean Hulk: I get that the wins it accomplishes are cheesy and dumb. But, it can be used legit to as great of an extent. It, in my opinion, is no worse than T&N, Defense of the Heart, or Survival. With the exception of the idiots running it in their combo decks, Protean Hulk is the definetely in the spirit of EDH.

Cards to put on: I have none. I definetely am a huge fan of the "small banlist" philosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 1:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-21 2:11 am
Age: Wyvern
I find it a little offensive you refer to combo players as "idiots", especially when Protean Hulk is nothing but a combo card. Even without running Flash and Karmic Guide it's a card that demands being combo'd with other cards like Mimic Vat, Birthing Pod and a deck full of nasty creatures. Granted, I'd love to see it unbanned, but only so I could abuse the crap out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 2:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mage of Rage wrote:
I find it a little offensive you refer to combo players as "idiots", especially when Protean Hulk is nothing but a combo card. Even without running Flash and Karmic Guide it's a card that demands being combo'd with other cards like Mimic Vat, Birthing Pod and a deck full of nasty creatures. Granted, I'd love to see it unbanned, but only so I could abuse the crap out of it.

Generally, spikey decks (which most combo decks are) are against what most members of this forum (including several members of the RC) consider the "spirit of the format". As a result, we generally tend to use not-nice words when describing combo players, especially since many of us know combo players who fit said descriptions. Judging by your repetition of calling PH "nothing but a combo card", I see that you most likely are a combo player, and I apoligize for offending you regardless of if this is or isn't the case.

EDIT: Relooking at this post, I think we have a difference of understanding of the word "combo". When I or most people here say combo, I/we mean one that is infinite, game winning, recurring, forming a lock, or something of that nature. Your Birthing Pod analogy makes me think that when you say combo, you mean cards that have synergy with each other.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 3:09 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
EDIT: Relooking at this post, I think we have a difference of understanding of the word "combo". When I or most people here say combo, I/we mean one that is infinite, game winning, recurring, forming a lock, or something of that nature. Your Birthing Pod analogy makes me think that when you say combo, you mean cards that have synergy with each other.


But that is what Protean Hulk does, you ramp up for a couple turns get the hulk out, you sac it get Karmic Guide and another card, Protean Hulk comes back into play and you sac it again and get Restoration Angel and another card, you flicker the Karmic Guide getting the hulk back you sac it and get Enslaved Horror and another card returning Protean Hulk to play, sac it again, and then once you have all the cards you want in the battlefield (i.e. ETBF and LTBF effect guys like Blood Artist) you get Safi and then you sac her then the karmic guide and kill everyone.

That is the reason the card is banned, it like Gifts is a multiple tutor but it puts the creatures onto the battlefield. Protean Hulk should stay banned.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 5:11 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-22 3:26 am
Age: Hatchling
Ban Tidespout Tyrant. I have never seen him played without doing something ridiculously broken. Infinite mana, infinite storm, infinite bounce and ETB effects. It's just incredibly dumb. To the point where I've seen more people making broken combo decks based around him than anything else.

Ban Mind Over Matter. Similar thing to Tidespout Tyrant, just combos too easily to well. It's just a degenerate card that says "I am going to do broken shit and win now". Combined with things like temple bell, Niv Mizzet, and Azami it is just incredibly easy to ramp and combo out with it.

I feel both these cards are valid bans under the same reasoning Staff of Domination was banned.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 7:23 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I can't think of anything that is completely wrecking meta games.

I think it interesting to see what players as a whole will do if Hulk is unbanned, but given the level of irresponsibility shown so far with cards like Staff and Primeval Titan I doubt things would work out well.

And definitely painters servant. So many neat things I could do that aren't completely borked, its a damned shame.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 8:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I would like to see Protean Hulk come off the list, but my hunch is that it would just go in every W/G/x goodstuff deck as yet another way to combo out with ReviSaffiGuide.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 8:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Protean Hulk needs to stay banned.

Like Primeval Titan, it offers too much potential power. The problem with a card like this is that "fair use", while a noble goal, is not a practical expectation.

There will be players trying to break it from the get-go. Those can be ignored. What can't be ignored is the number of people who find it transforming their decks into antisocial combo piles.

It starts innocently enough, but then someone suggests to the player some really strong synergies and they start down a road that doesn't end until they've passed acceptable use levels.

I can guarantee there are/were players who grabbed Forests and Llanowar Reborns etc. with their Primeval Titan. Those same players were helped into things like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Cabal Coffers, Inkmoth Nexus/Kessig Wolf Run, Gaea's Cradle, etc. Then they started to play Green Sun's Zenith etc. and before long they'd made a streamlined Primeval Titan deck, and their metagame was also forced to change similarly.

If anything, Tooth and Nail should be considered for a ban along the same lines. It's a big splashy spell that seems like it should be in spirit of the format, but it becomes over time something used primarily for degenerate combo.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 8:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There are already plenty of ways to combo off in this format without Hulk for those inclined to do that. Adding one more by removing Hulk from the list is probably not going to hurt the format too much.

Similarly, I'd love to see Servant unbanned, mostly because then it would give me some incentive to play Teysa again.

EDIT: @Spekter: the same things could be said of Kokusho, which just came off.

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Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 8:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Eh. I don't think Kokusho does much. I really don't think he's anywhere near the power level or warp level of Primeval Titan. I could be underestimating him though.

What does Kokusho do, really, other than gain you life? You need to build strongly for sacrifice and reanimator to push him into the territory of doing real damage, but every single playable graveyard hate card makes him worthless.

Prime Time didn't need to risk the vulnerability of graveyard tricks to be abused. You could blink him, bounce him, or simply keep him alive to continue to get triggers (each of which had more value than Kokusho's trigger individually, IMO).

Kokusho is worthless without the graveyard, and the graveyard is easily attacked at instant speed.

Edit: I am NOT operating under the delusion that effects like Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are effective against Kokusho; I understand how sacrifice outlets work. However, there is no way you can reanimate a creature without offering a window for responses. Further, black requires pairing up with another color or using pretty inefficient colorless answers in order to answer the extremely efficient artifact and enchantment graveyard hate. I has nothing other than Imp's Mischief to answer the Instant stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 9:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spekter wrote:
Eh. I don't think Kokusho does much. I really don't think he's anywhere near the power level or warp level of Primeval Titan. I could be underestimating him though.

This is interesting, because I see them the other way around: Koko is more of a problem than Prime Time.

Spekter wrote:
What does Kokusho do, really, other than gain you life? You need to build strongly for sacrifice and reanimator to push him into the territory of doing real damage, but every single playable graveyard hate card makes him worthless.

Um, he kills people. In a color with naturally strong reanimator and sacrifice effects. In a format where people don't run nearly enough graveyard hate. Prime Time just ramps you in a format already rife with ramp.

Spekter wrote:
Prime Time didn't need to risk the vulnerability of graveyard tricks to be abused. You could blink him, bounce him, or simply keep him alive to continue to get triggers (each of which had more value than Kokusho's trigger individually, IMO).

I suppose I'll concede that Kokusho's "fair use" is less damaging than Prime Time's. However, I will also say that Kokusho's best use is far, far better than Prime Time's. What you see is more or less what you get with Primeval Titan, but decks built to abuse Kokusho are going to be very obnoxious. Crucially, many of the graveyard removal cards that are playable in this format are either sorcery speed or on-board tricks, meaning they're fairly easy to answer or avoid. You don't have to let Koko sit in the graveyard after you sacrifice him.

Spekter wrote:
Kokusho is worthless without the graveyard, and the graveyard is easily attacked at instant speed.

I've run, at various points in time, four graveyard-based decks in a metagame with a fairly consistent group of people. I still can't get them to play more than a token piece of graveyard hate.

I also want to point out that I was talking about comparisons to Protean Hulk, not Prime Time. If Kokoshu is fine, Hulk should also be fine, particularly given the arguments you're putting forth here.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 10:08 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
I suppose I'll concede that Kokusho's "fair use" is less damaging than Prime Time's. However, I will also say that Kokusho's best use is far, far better than Prime Time's. What you see is more or less what you get with Primeval Titan, but decks built to abuse Kokusho are going to be very obnoxious. Crucially, many of the graveyard removal cards that are playable in this format are either sorcery speed or on-board tricks, meaning they're fairly easy to answer or avoid. You don't have to let Koko sit in the graveyard after you sacrifice him.

Prime Time's "best uses" include untapping for a bigass Exsanguinate (or any other X spell), and Kessig Wolfing an Inkmoth. Koko's instant wins are pretty much limited to Rite of Replication. Both were/are abusive, and they both boil down two things: the intentions of the user, and how powerful their innocent uses are. The latter is what makes Prime Time so bad: he's an awesome card that even a Day 1 player would want to (and should) run, and even if he only fetches basic lands he still ramps every turn and thins your deck. Compare that to Koko, who dies once, causes a little pain across the board, and sits in the graveyard for the rest of the game. (Protean Hulk is similar, in that used innocently, it dies and replaces itself.)


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 10:08 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Understandable enough.

I am talking more about fair use cases, though. Protean Hulk, like Primeval Titan, can be a problem with a single trigger - Kokusho, the Evening Star needs to be spammed to be a killer.

I'm sorry your opponents are awful. Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Glissa, the Traitor are played regularly in my metagame, so Leyline of the Void and Relic of Progenitus are played in every possible deck. The recent printing of Tormod's Crypt makes it much more available and appealing.

Urge your playgroup to go up to 2-3 token GYH cards at least.

Chances are good that Kokusho will find himself back on the list some months down the road. But since people have been asking to test it again in the new, post-Commander metagame, it makes sense to see if it's safe by now.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 11:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-22 3:26 am
Age: Hatchling
Just out of curiosity was Prime Titan really that degenerate in most peoples play groups? He just didn't seem nearly as broken as the average U shell combo or 5 color combo decks I used to see when we tried having a competitive league. Even more-so when playing casually I've never seen him be that big of a problem or do anything out of the ordinary that a strong artifact package couldn't do already. I could see it being as equally broken as so many other cards in the format if you ramped into him on turn 2 or 3. Even then it just doesn't sound as degenerate or obnoxious to me from what I've seen of "degenerate combo EDH".


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 11:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Serj wrote:
Just out of curiosity was Prime Titan really that degenerate in most peoples play groups? He just didn't seem nearly as broken as the average U shell combo or 5 color combo decks I used to see when we tried having a competitive league. Even more-so when playing casually I've never seen him be that big of a problem or do anything out of the ordinary that a strong artifact package couldn't do already. I could see it being as equally broken as so many other cards in the format if you ramped into him on turn 2 or 3. Even then it just doesn't sound as degenerate or obnoxious to me from what I've seen of "degenerate combo EDH".

Here's the thing, he's NOT degenerate. He doesn't do degenerate things, using degenerate in the context most widely accepted. He's a big fatty that ramps your mana. The issue with him is that he's the best at what he does, and he's aggressively costed. So he got played in every deck, and tons of games played a mini game of control the Prime Time.


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