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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 3:14 am 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
Does anyone else find it odd that the RC banned Primeval Titan to discourage ramp?

Almost every game I've ever played in started with the first 1-4 turns every player ramps, whether it's with sorceries like cultivate, creatures like solemn simulacrum, or mana rocks.

It seems to me the whole point of Commander is to ramp and play huge spells that would otherwise not be played in other formats, or are played with much less frequency.

So is it that ramp that costs 1-5 mana is ok, but 6+ ramp spells shouldn't be played?

Is Boundless Realms next on the chopping block?

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 3:16 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Grab those elementals and treefolk for 5 mana!

They don't totally replace prime, but they still ramp nicely with fat sticks.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 3:26 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
pookel wrote:
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?

You missed Karn Liberated. I mean, if you actually resolve his ultimate then it doesn't much matter what cards you shuffle back from exile, but it is another effect. Also the original effect of the Wishes (Burning Wish, for example) allowed you to find cards that had been "removed from the game," which was the previous language used to describe exile. It was only after exile was renamed that they stopped working that way.
(just nitpicking, I agree with your overall point)


Last edited by intreped on 2012-Sep-20 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 3:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
Celerus wrote:
Does anyone else find it odd that the RC banned Primeval Titan to discourage ramp?

Almost every game I've ever played in started with the first 1-4 turns every player ramps, whether it's with sorceries like cultivate, creatures like solemn simulacrum, or mana rocks.

It seems to me the whole point of Commander is to ramp and play huge spells that would otherwise not be played in other formats, or are played with much less frequency.

So is it that ramp that costs 1-5 mana is ok, but 6+ ramp spells shouldn't be played?

Is Boundless Realms next on the chopping block?


Thats also my criticism. But the real problem is that on one side you need ramp to play the cool spells but only one color has the solid ramp spells. Of course you can play mana rocks but one Oblivion Stone or similar card and you are back in the stone age. Primeval Titan is therefore only the poster child of this underlying problem.


Last edited by trischai on 2012-Sep-20 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 3:30 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Oh god, Riftsweeper is SO OP and needs to be banned!


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 4:26 am 
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Location: Saskatchewan
@trishchai

You really should look at Sheldon's fuller and more current explanation of the RC banning philosophy, which you can also find right here.

When something warps the format to the point where if a person falls behind or cannot compete properly unless they find some way to abuse either theirs or someone elses, it is probably best for it to to. I'm not a complete supporter myself of the PT ban, but I do fully understand why it had to come about.

PT vs Sol Ring and friends is kind of a bad comparison and the reasons have been stated multiple times, so no need to repeat there.

Battlecruiser magic is great, but not that enjoyable if only a portion of the table is allowed to play with battlecruisers.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 5:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
@Ukkmaster

Thanks for the link to Sheldons article. Somehow I missed it totally. It really helped to understand the thought process of the RC.

But now I am more confused than before. According to the article the RC does not ban whole families of card but only the worst offender. But wouldn't it be much easier to just state what strategies are against the spirit of the format and just give examples. Like for example "Spells which combine mass LD and board wipes like Upheaval or Worldfire shouldn't be played because of bla bla."

As it is now and I can only refer to the behavior of the players at my game stores it's much more like. Okay this is the banned list and every other card is fair game. But don't be a douch.

Back to the banning PT. What should we learn from it. Are heavy ramp decks a bad thing to play. For example I role a very neat Sasaya deck without mass LD shenenigans or instant win combos but it is a heavy ramp deck. The banning of PT will not change the deck one bit because PT was not in it in the first place. So am I not following the "banned list" implication by playing Sasaya or can i still play the deck. Can I still play Miraris Wake in my Ghave Deck. It doubles my mana and could totally qualify for a heavy ramp card. Or are only creatures which ramp more than 1 mana a bad thing. The banning of metal worker and Roffelos as commander could implicate this.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 5:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
pookel wrote:
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?

You missed Karn Liberated. I mean, if you actually resolve his ultimate then it doesn't much matter what cards you shuffle back from exile, but it is another effect. Also the original effect of the Wishes (Burning Wish, for example) allowed you to find cards that had been "removed from the game," which was the previous language used to describe exile. It was only after exile was renamed that they stopped working that way.
(just nitpicking, I agree with your overall point)


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 5:45 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trischai wrote:
@Ukkmaster

Thanks for the link to Sheldons article. Somehow I missed it totally. It really helped to understand the thought process of the RC.

But now I am more confused than before. According to the article the RC does not ban whole families of card but only the worst offender. But wouldn't it be much easier to just state what strategies are against the spirit of the format and just give examples. Like for example "Spells which combine mass LD and board wipes like Upheaval or Worldfire shouldn't be played because of bla bla."


It doesn't say that, though. The idea is that just because we're banning a card doesn't mean that that whole class of cards is being banned or that the logic can *obviously* be applied to a different card (we hear that a lot). Cards are different in subtle and interesting ways, and what pushes one over the line may be just on the line for another one.

trischai wrote:
But don't be a douch.


This is the single most important part of the message.

trischai wrote:
Back to the banning PT. What should we learn from it. Are heavy ramp decks a bad thing to play. For example I role a very neat Sasaya deck without mass LD shenenigans or instant win combos but it is a heavy ramp deck. The banning of PT will not change the deck one bit because PT was not in it in the first place. So am I not following the "banned list" implication by playing Sasaya or can i still play the deck. Can I still play Miraris Wake in my Ghave Deck. It doubles my mana and could totally qualify for a heavy ramp card. Or are only creatures which ramp more than 1 mana a bad thing. The banning of metal worker and Roffelos as commander could implicate this.


If your ramp deck is zooming so far ahead of everyone else that they don't have a chance to play their spells, or have to warp their decks a bunch to deal with you, then it might be excessive. You are far better equipped to evaluate that than anyone else.

Ramp should be good. It should not the the obviousclearonlybest thing, and hopefully banning Titan will have some impact, both in effect and in message.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 5:53 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
green slime wrote:

Can't believe I forgot Runic Repetition. It's narrow, but it is one of those effects. The others aren't actually ways of getting back other cards from exile, though, so I don't count them.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 7:38 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Celerus wrote:
Does anyone else find it odd that the RC banned Primeval Titan to discourage ramp?

Almost every game I've ever played in started with the first 1-4 turns every player ramps, whether it's with sorceries like cultivate, creatures like solemn simulacrum, or mana rocks.

It seems to me the whole point of Commander is to ramp and play huge spells that would otherwise not be played in other formats, or are played with much less frequency.

So is it that ramp that costs 1-5 mana is ok, but 6+ ramp spells shouldn't be played?

Is Boundless Realms next on the chopping block?


The problem wasn't that Prime Time was a ramp spell. The problem is that prime time was THE ramp spell. If it had been, say

Oats and Beans - 4GG
Sorcery
Search your library for two land cards and put them onto the battlefield tapped.

we wouldn't be having this conversation. This card would've just been two Sow parts of Reap and Sow stapled together at a slight discount. Even if you had some way to endlessly recur this card, you'd still need to spend six mana each time you wanted the effect, and resolve it each time. But Prime Time's a creature with a double-dipping trigger, meaning you get it's double Sow every time you blink, reanimate, clone, or turn it sideways. Is there any other ramp spell that's even in the same league in terms of efficiency or repeatability?

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 7:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
papa_funk wrote:
Ramp should be good. It should not the the obviousclearonlybest thing, and hopefully banning Titan will have some impact, both in effect and in message.


But as an experienced player a can assure you the ramp is obviousclearonlybest thing in commander. You need lots of lands to play the mana heavy spells and you need even more if you want to play other things besides that one 6+ Mana spell. Heavy ramp is the only way to achieve this goal apart from some niche commanders.

Besides that ramp decks are very cheap and easy to play which is good for newcomers and casual gamers.

To tell newbies that they can play their titanic ultimatum and savage beating with entwine in one turn without a heavy ramp strategy is a blatant lie. But such crazy plays are what make commander such a blast to play. At least that is what most players are aiming at.

What I often see is that colors without good ramp spells get outperformed by the ramp decks. Round 7 and 6 mana vs 14 mana from the ramp decks is a typical gap. But that is fulled by common/uncommon spells. Rampant growth into explosive vegetation and the ramp deck has 7 mana round 4 vs the four from a normal deck. But it gets worse the ramp deck now plays for example reap and sow and fetches temple of the false god and follows this with a harmonize. The non-ramp deck plays just a draw spell to find the next land. So its now 5 mana vs 10 mana round 5. Imagine that the ramp deck plays now B. Realms. The non ramp player can't punish such a play stile. In normal magic the ramp player looses a lot of tempo by playing only ramp spells and is an easy pray for beatdown strategies or counter control decks. But in commander you have no anti play stile. An easy example to demonstrate this dilemma is the following. Considering a 5 FFA 3 opponents role ramp decks and play similar cards like above no rares or mythics. Just common and uncommon ramp spells and card draw. You play a deck without ramp maybe one 2 mana rock. But you also have to stick to commons and uncommons. How do you keep up with the ramp strategies or find counter play.

Bottom line is there is no real commonly available counter strategy like in 1:1 magic and this dilemma will not be solved by banning PT.

Therefore would it not be easier just to say ramp is the common way to play so that you can embrace the chaos without to much worrying if you can actually play your spells this game.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 7:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Such a shame. I only played PT in my Teneb deck (which gets all the best) since it seemed more of an auto-include than Sol Ring, but the best games i've had abusing my opponents PT. Koko seems more of a fun and disruptable aternative.

Worldfire: well my Heartless Hidetsugu suicide red deck.... isn't even that sad.

I must say these choices seem the most natural in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 9:05 am 
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trischai wrote:
But as an experienced player a can assure you the ramp is obviousclearonlybest thing in commander.

As "an experienced player", I assure you that ramp is NOT "obviousclearonlybest thing in commander".
It's the easiest way to play, and thus the most common, but assuming it's "clearly the best" is folly.

You can build a Rafiq of the Many deck with no spells with CMC >5 and kill people on the 4th or 5th turn easily.
Arcum Daggsum? Who needs ramp when your commander lets you skip the whole "paying for stuff"?
Or a Linvala deck with cards like Aven Mindcensor and Stoney Silence. All that ramp seems pretty terrible now, huh?
Those are just a few examples.

Basically, yes, ramp is very good. I tend to play alot of it in most of my decks. But that's just it... Most of them. Some of them don't need. It's not the be all end all, and it's not the only good way to play.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 9:18 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
@kaldare
Like I said apart from some niche commanders like the ones you mentioned. Its not a commonly playable strategy if you have to fall back on specific rares and mythics.


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