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 Post subject: Ghave - Having it All
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-16 5:11 am 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
I first decided WGB was the pre-con for me based purely on Ghave looking awesome from the initial spoiler. I've since loved the complicated nature of what Ghave does to combat steps and sacrifice outlets and tokens. Unfortunately I'm at a critical mass of options and seek some input on the matter.

The decklist, new changes in bold:

Combo Pieces - 9
Academy Rector
Ashnod's Altar
Blade of the Bloodchief
Defense of the Heart
Doubling Season
Juniper Order Ranger
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Parallel Lives - Demoted to Half Combo Piece
Tooth and Nail
Twilight Drover

Creatures - 21
Acidic Slime
Angel of Despair
Baneslayer Angel Archon of Justice
Butcher of Malakir
Divinity of Pride Quasli Pridemage - Had to use the DCI art
Eternal Dragon
Eternal Witness
Knight of the Reliquary Primeval Titan
Karmic Guide
Necravolver
Phantom Nishoba
Puppeteer Clique
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Seedborn Muse Saffi Eriksdotter
Serra Ascendant
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Solemn Simulacrum
Sun Titan
Woodfall Primus - Terastodon did his job for a long time
Twilight Shepherd
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Triskelion will be missed forever

Enchantments - 11
Animate Dead
Debtor's Knell
Grave Pact
Heartbeat of Spring
Martyr's Bond
Mirari's Wake
Necromancy
Phyrexian Arena
Privileged Position Land Tax
Rites of Flourishing
Sterling Grove
Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers - 4
Garruk Wildspeaker
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Placeholder for Elspeth Tirel
Karn Liberated
Liliana Vess
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Artifacts - 2
Lightning Greaves
Sol Ring

Spells - 18
Beast Within
Condemn
Damnation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Hallowed Burial
Harmonize
Life from the Loam - Temporary to fight some rampant "noncreature permanent" destruction
Living Death
Maelstrom Pulse
Mortify
Oblation
Path to Exile
Putrefy
Swords to Plowshares
Vampiric Tutor
Vindicate
Wrath of God

Lands - 33 total lands
Command Tower
Gaea's Cradle Sunpetal Grove
Gavony Township
Kor Haven
Krosan Verge
Mistveil Plains
Murmoring Bosk
Strip Mine
Vault of the Archangel
Vesuva
Volrath's Stronghold
3 Duals
3 Shocks
2 Fetches
5 Plains
5 Forests
4 Swamps

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


Last edited by InOzWeTrust on 2012-Mar-18 12:16 am, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-17 2:27 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-14 12:18 pm
Age: Drake
I'm not sure I understand your need for a "Lifelink" section. Ageless Entity doesn't trample, and you don't seem to have enough life gain to trigger him consistently anyway, so I'd say he's the first easy drop. Of the others in this section, only Necravolver and Wurmcoil Engine go with your counters and tokens theme, the rest of them don't do much for you, and could be pulled to make room for something else. You might make the case for Behemoth Sledge, because this gives Ghave trample and can help enable a kill once in a while, but Baneslayer, Divinity, and the Ascendant I'd cut. You also have a lot of removal, more than I am used to seeing, and I'd cut Terastodon first just because he's expensive and occasionally the 3/3 token matters.

If you're going to include Crucible of Worlds, then cards like Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds go up in value, as well as every Alara-block Panorama except for Grixis Panorama, which doesn't get you two choices, though if you put them all in then you may not have enough basics left to find, so the first two are probably enough*. The choice between Darksteel Plate and Swiftfoot Boots really depends on your metagame's removal, where one, the other, both, or neither may be appropriate. Twilight Drover is great with Ashnod's Altar, but otherwise tends to be very mana-intensive, and I'd suggest that his major strength is likely as a source of flying creatures for chump blocks against Angels and Dragons, but is unlikely to create an overwhelming attack force in a short period of time. Karmic Guide seems to me to be stronger than Animate Dead because it's a creature and therefore works with your Debtors' Knell, Living Death, and Mikaeus for added value. Gaea's Cradle is probably the next easiest include, since you can probably get away with putting it in a land slot.

*I'd also consider Perilous Forays for additional late-game acceleration; this helps you re-cast Ghave from the command zone at an increasing cost as well as enabling all of your other spells, and it fetches your dual lands, your Mistveil Plans and Murmuring Bosk! With plenty of tokens to sacrifice, you should have no trouble turning this into an incredible ramp engine.

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Why don't you have a Wayfarer's Bauble in your deck?


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-17 11:04 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
I have a Doran deck that also has Ghave in it. A recent addition to the deck is Requiem Angel because as I noticed, all it says is non-spirit creature, not non-token creature. She is on the higher mana side, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Also, I have been finding little use for Knight of the Reliquary in mine, even though it has a few more basics that yours. It runs out of targets quickly and unless you are really aiming for specific lands to get in, she ends up mediocre. I see that you are running crucible, which benefits the sac engine a bit, but doesn't make her as potent when it comes to her being around. Hard to say in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-17 11:12 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
One thing I figured I would add. Liliana Vess, I noticed, has the little added tagged "mostly for the ultimate". The only time I have ever seen her reach ultimate state was after pretty much every creature in all graveyards had been exiled. Unless it is different in your group, a plansewalker ultimate is a very rare thing. I can count on one hand the number of times they have gone off, which most of them, strangely enough, being Ajani Goldmane.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-18 12:31 am 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
Ukkmaster wrote:
I have a Doran deck that also has Ghave in it. A recent addition to the deck is Requiem Angel because as I noticed, all it says is non-spirit creature, not non-token creature. She is on the higher mana side, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.


So um wow. I did not notice that myself I have glanced past that angel so many times and never noticed it. Having only 2 Spirit creatures that is amazing. TYVM.

Also as for Lilliana Vess, Doubling Season = Instant Ultimate and she lives. If she doesn't she finds me a piece of the combo or a powerful critter to stave off death preferably with lifelink.

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-18 12:48 am 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
Etsap wrote:
I'm not sure I understand your need for a "Lifelink" section. Ageless Entity doesn't trample, and you don't seem to have enough life gain to trigger him consistently anyway, so I'd say he's the first easy drop. Of the others in this section, only Necravolver and Wurmcoil Engine go with your counters and tokens theme, the rest of them don't do much for you, and could be pulled to make room for something else. You might make the case for Behemoth Sledge, because this gives Ghave trample and can help enable a kill once in a while, but Baneslayer, Divinity, and the Ascendant I'd cut. You also have a lot of removal, more than I am used to seeing, and I'd cut Terastodon first just because he's expensive and occasionally the 3/3 token matters.

If you're going to include Crucible of Worlds, then cards like Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds go up in value, as well as every Alara-block Panorama except for Grixis Panorama, which doesn't get you two choices, though if you put them all in then you may not have enough basics left to find, so the first two are probably enough*. The choice between Darksteel Plate and Swiftfoot Boots really depends on your metagame's removal, where one, the other, both, or neither may be appropriate. Twilight Drover is great with Ashnod's Altar, but otherwise tends to be very mana-intensive, and I'd suggest that his major strength is likely as a source of flying creatures for chump blocks against Angels and Dragons, but is unlikely to create an overwhelming attack force in a short period of time. Karmic Guide seems to me to be stronger than Animate Dead because it's a creature and therefore works with your Debtors' Knell, Living Death, and Mikaeus for added value. Gaea's Cradle is probably the next easiest include, since you can probably get away with putting it in a land slot.

*I'd also consider Perilous Forays for additional late-game acceleration; this helps you re-cast Ghave from the command zone at an increasing cost as well as enabling all of your other spells, and it fetches your dual lands, your Mistveil Plans and Murmuring Bosk! With plenty of tokens to sacrifice, you should have no trouble turning this into an incredible ramp engine.


I included the lifelink section as I've found it draws less hate, gives me more room to work with and as the non-Volver/Engine ones fly that helps with a win. As much as I love the Ageless Entity you are sadly right, he is only good if I can give him a hammer. I do feel like I want more rather than less as I'm actively seeking Phantom Nishoba which I think is both stronger and more thematic.

Terrastadon is just filler for the much better Woodfall Primus which I lack right now. I can cut him for now but then have another space to fill later.

Karmic Guide is much stronger however I do not have one as of yet, they tend to be all sold out or going for too much on Ebay. Karmic Guide and Puppeteer Clique are two halves of the same coin of steal the best creature (over and over with Mr. Unhallowed) where as Animate Dead energizes well with Sterling Grove, Sun Titan, Twilight Shepherd + Sac which won me a game tonight from 3 to dead.

I did pick up Twilight Drover tonight and that has proven very intimidating simply because it let me make fliers tho would not be my primary means of generating a board presence.

Perilous Forays does help me ramp rather handily turning everything into a Sac-me for anything I need I could easily add it in for a few games. I don't see 5 mana being a problem.


Do you think anything here seems excessively redundant beyond the removal?

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-18 1:47 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
I also decided to get around to posting my Doran deck that I mentioned above. The link is here: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11461, if you are interested in checking it out.

On a side note, because I simply don't know, how do I shrink a link, but keep it a link, into a word or some such? Such as the link looking like "crapshoot" or something?


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 4:48 pm 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
So after a limited amount of test games and some shipments arriving I've made some adjustments for the time being.

+Phantom Nishoba - Counters, Lifelink & Trample all good
+Karmic Guide
+Dawntrader Elk
+Seedborn Muse

-Stoneforge Mystic
-Perilous Forays - Switched back, needed more acceleration than I needed to roll forward
-Oblivion Ring - as the weakest piece of removal it just got removed
-Behemoth Sledge - With mystic gone it felt more like a liability


As always please point out glaring flaws in my logic.

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 4:57 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
All decent changes, except for one. I consider Sakura-Tribe Elder strictly better than Dawntreader Elk. Sure, one is a 2/2 instead, but it does require you to have a green open to use it.

Also be warned of Karmic Guide as you can start to surround your game plan around her. I don't recall you have any big abuses for her in there for it to be a big deal, but just a heads up.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 5:25 pm 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
Ukkmaster wrote:
All decent changes, except for one. I consider Sakura-Tribe Elder strictly better than Dawntreader Elk. Sure, one is a 2/2 instead, but it does require you to have a green open to use it.

Also be warned of Karmic Guide as you can start to surround your game plan around her. I don't recall you have any big abuses for her in there for it to be a big deal, but just a heads up.


I have both Sacme & Dawntreader in now. I've found a need for mana acceleration to be quite crucial lately and when he can be a moderately efficient roadblock early on if I don't need the land. I find people willing to kamikaze into him with their utility creature to deny me the land and usually this is better for me than them. And if it gets stolen by non-green they can't use him.

I will take the warning under advisement. My biggest goal is to get double blockers out of knell. If she goes badly I'll give it to my girlfriend for her Kalia deck to make it that much more roflstompy.

Bojuka Bog has been pretty disappointing lately. I'm not sure of something better in a utility slot to fetch with the Knight that would go better in it's place.



I've been considering the following and wanted to get some input specifically.

Archon of Justice - Seems good but seems like a more complicated Woodfall Primus.

Saffi Eriksdotter - Possible infinite combo with Sun Titan but I don't run nor want a Bitter Ordeal. Anything else I'm missing to put her over the top?

Swiftfoot Boots - Ghave doesn't get RFGed much and wraths aren't rampant in the group but more haste for the fatties as a not-Ghave win con.

Phyrexian Arena - I stumbled across this while cleaning out a box. More cards more options more gas. What to cut tho?

Return to Dust - 2 for 1 is good. I'm already strapped for slots now and exile is just clearly better than destroy. There's no darksteel anything running rampant so...opinions?

Yosei, the Morning Star - It's just so mean. I've always wanted to use it and I've never wanted to abuse it and seems like for the first time I could do both.

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 7:20 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I like all five of those cards, personally. Saffi is an okay combo with Sun Titan, which nets you infinite colourless with Ashnod's Altar. She's a better combo with Reveillark, though, and between Triskelion, Karmic Guide, Phantom Nishoba and Juniper Order Ranger, Reveillark should probably be in there already. Even if you're just getting back a Sakura-Tribe Elder and an Acidic Slime, it's still amazing. Just like Karmic Guide, though, careful that Saffi and Lark don't take over your deck if you don't want to play combo.

For Saffi to go really broken you'd probably need more free sac outlets (I don't know how broken you actually want to go). I mean, Sadistic Hypnotist is pretty good with Ghave alone, if you want to go that way...

You don't have any really dead cards, so cuts are subjective, but I'd consider some of the following:
- Sorin, Liliana (I know that they're ridiculous when played into a Doubling Season, but a) that play should be relatively rare, b) they're kinda lackluster on their own, and c) if you're keeping Doubling Season in play you're winning anyway)
- Baneslayer, Serra Ascendant (dumb beaters don't do much in multiplayer. if you're playing mostly 1v1 then they're a bit more valuable)
- Debtor's Knell, Defense of the Heart (in my experience, these never stick around long enough to do their thing)
- Crime//Punishment, Rites of Flourishing (I just don't think they're as good as your other cards, that's all)


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All Assistance Requested
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 7:25 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ukkmaster wrote:
I also decided to get around to posting my Doran deck that I mentioned above. The link is here: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11461, if you are interested in checking it out.

On a side note, because I simply don't know, how do I shrink a link, but keep it a link, into a word or some such? Such as the link looking like "crapshoot" or something?


Go like this:
Code:
[url=http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11461]Doran deck[/url]

Doran deck


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 11:35 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Go like this:

Code:
Doran deck

Doran deck
Ukkmaster wrote:
I also decided to get around to posting my Doran deck that I mentioned above. The link is here: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11461, if you are interested in checking it out.

On a side note, because I simply don't know, how do I shrink a link, but keep it a link, into a word or some such? Such as the link looking like "crapshoot" or something?


Go like this:
Code:
[url=http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11461]Doran deck[/url]

Doran deck


Sweet, thanks!

Took me a few lookovers to get it right, but I got it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 6:49 pm 

Joined: 2012-Feb-16 3:43 am
Age: Drake
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
I like all five of those cards, personally. Saffi is an okay combo with Sun Titan, which nets you infinite colourless with Ashnod's Altar. She's a better combo with Reveillark, though, and between Triskelion, Karmic Guide, Phantom Nishoba and Juniper Order Ranger, Reveillark should probably be in there already. Even if you're just getting back a Sakura-Tribe Elder and an Acidic Slime, it's still amazing. Just like Karmic Guide, though, careful that Saffi and Lark don't take over your deck if you don't want to play combo.


So yeah I didn't even notice how many viable targets Reveillark has nor how cheap it is to come by so that might be replacing the Baneslayer (sad as I am to see her go). For now I'm going to try Saffi in Wurmcoil Engine's place. I've never cast him since pre-release and this seems like a better fit in Eldric as a finisher.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
You don't have any really dead cards, so cuts are subjective, but I'd consider some of the following:
- Sorin, Liliana (I know that they're ridiculous when played into a Doubling Season, but a) that play should be relatively rare, b) they're kinda lackluster on their own, and c) if you're keeping Doubling Season in play you're winning anyway)


Sorin stays, even if all he does is emblem and die it's still worth it to make my tokens double in power and my opponents being unable to take that away. Although he usually does much more.

Lily stays because I am in love with the PS3 promo art and she can end the game with DS or fetch a combo piece and set up the win or tutor up a wrath to keep me alive.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
- Baneslayer, Serra Ascendant (dumb beaters don't do much in multiplayer. if you're playing mostly 1v1 then they're a bit more valuable)

For now they stay because they fly and have lifelink although Wurmcoil is of course leaving tonight. Baneslayer is likely on her way out as above.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
- Debtor's Knell, Defense of the Heart (in my experience, these never stick around long enough to do their thing)

I've not found that problem. Often folks second guess their plays but if they're out there they usually scare people enough they'd have to Austere Command or single target them over a Doubling Season. The ability to tutor it up post-wrath with a dying Academy Rector has won a few games that were otherwise out of my reach.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
- Crime//Punishment, Rites of Flourishing (I just don't think they're as good as your other cards, that's all)

The flexibility helps and I'm getting it autographed by the artist soon but it is a recent addition and hasn't played a major role yet nor has having it instead of something else been a drawback. I'm willing to give it a little more time to shine and hey, its better than Overgrown Estate.

As for Rites they just help everyone and let me make land drops, with how mana hungry my every-stage-of-the-game is I can't see getting rid of it except with Phyrexian Arena which robs me of the extra land drop to keep my opponents from reaping any benefit. More thought is required.


Hopefully Leap Day is a bunch more hours of EDH.

_________________
Decklists
Ghave - Grocery Bag
Edric - "Helpdeck"
Hazezon Tamar - Dune Flavor Project

I'm just glad I'm not in a group that has to worry about a Sky Hussar combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ghave - Having it All
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 9:34 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I just realized that Reveillark can even get Ghave back from the grave, if you're tired of paying his increasingly exorbitant commander tax. Lark will never be a dead draw.

Mostly just commenting to ask about Necravolver. Am I missing something, or is he just way worse than Wurmcoil Engine? Do you just like him for the three potential saprolings he comes with?


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