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 Post subject: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-06 6:45 am 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-06 5:57 am
Age: Drake
I recently came back to the game after not playing for over 6 years and immediately fell for the Elder Dragon Highlander format (Still have my mono black asian highlander deck from back in the days.) Here's my Scion of the Ur-Dragon list:

Commander:
Scion of the Ur-Dragon

Dragons:
Hellkite Overlord
Nicol Bolas
Dragon Tyrant
Quicksilver Dragon
Numot, the Devastator
Teneb, the Harvester
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen

Other creatures:
Myojin of Night's Reach
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Solemn Simulacrum
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness
Snapcaster Mage
Nezumi Graverobber

Planeswalkers:
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Liliana Vess

Artifacts:
Sol Ring
Darksteel Ingot
Gilded Lotus
Mirari
Mindslaver
Helm of Obedience
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Oblivion Stone
Nevinyrral's Disk
Lightning Greaves

Enchantments:
Sylvan Library
Debtors' Knell
Necropotence
Mana Reflection
Animate Dead
Future Sight

Instants:
Putrefy
Cunning Wish
Mortify
Forbidden Alchemy
Shred Memory
Fact or Fiction

Sorceries:
Hull Breach
Reap and Sow
Cruel Ultimatum
Tooth and Nail
Explosive Vegetation
Kodama's Reach
Cultivate
Chainer's Edict
Maelstrom Pulse
Reanimate
Farseek
All Suns' Dawn
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Dimir Machinations
Yawgmoth's Will
Regrowth
Far Wanderings
Beacon of Unrest

Lands:
City of Brass
Command Tower
Bayou
Overgrown Tomb
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Polluted Delta
Badlands
Bloodstained Mire
Taiga
Stomping Ground
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Volcanic Island
Scrubland
Godless Shrine
Krosan Verge
Bojuka Bog
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Thawing Glaciers
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Academy Ruins
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Strip Mine
Maze of Ith
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Mountain
Plains

Sideboard:
Condemn
Hinder
Coffin Purge
Capsize
Bant Charm
Swords to Plowshares
Diabolic Edict
Krosan Grip
Pulse of the Fields
Dismantling Blow

The mana base is a bit clunky at times and the deck can be a bit slow 1 vs 1 but overall it's a lot of fun to play and I win my fair share of games among my playgroup. I'm considering cutting Nevinyrral's Disk in favor of Legacy Weapon (I hate the disk coming into play tapped) but I'm not sure if I can risk playing only 1 sweeper. Maybe I need something like Damnation, Decree of Pain or Plague Wind because my manabase doesn't support white sweepers.

Any suggestions for improvement are welcome :)

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-06 9:16 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Just out of the gate, cards typical to Scion that are absent from your list are Living Death, Patriarch's Bidding, and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund. I think their inclusion is pretty self explanatory, Karrthus is meant to be used with the other two, obviously.

Cunning Wish may be met with frowns; the sideboards are an optional rule. Be sure to check with the people you're playing with before hand.

On the manabase front, it looks mostly good, but I question the inclusion of all the lands that tap for colourless; Sunhome, Academy Ruins and others are pretty baller, but the deck is pretty colour intensive.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. I personally like to include more value generating creatures like Shadowmage Infiltrator and similar, but that's personal preference.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-13 2:47 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-14 12:18 pm
Age: Drake
Interesting trick with Henge Guardian (now a Dragon, see the Knights vs. Dragons printing): Activate the Scion twice, let the first activation resolve finding the Henge Guardian, activate the trample, and then let the second Scion activation resolve to find your Teneb, or whatever. Then it will still have trample! The same trick works with Moltensteel Dragon's firebreathing, for when you don't have enough mana but have plenty of life. I also like Rith, the Awakener, Knollspine Dragon, Malfegor, and Shapesharer as Dragons.

I find that Bladewing the Risen is great once you get him out, and he likes Momentary Blink, Turn to Mist, and Ghostway a lot, which help against removal if you need them.

I also really like Reito Lantern or Soldevi Digger, as these let you re-use the same search targets over and over if you want to.

Finally, it's a shame not to play Prismatic Omen in any five-color deck. It turns all of your lands into Command Towers!

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-13 4:19 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-05 7:30 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I play a Scion deck a fair amount and can whole heartedly recommend the Legacy Weapon. It is a rattlesnake but in a different way to Disk.

People attack into Disk to force your hand. Unless somebody can kill you, they won't attack into Legacy Weapon. Disk nukes everything, whilst Legacy Weapon takes out the single most important thing on their board. Generally I use it very diplomatically, in a way that demonstrates that it's just there for my protection and use it to steer people away from me, whilst also acting on the wishes of the group when it comes to blowing things up.

One of the MVPs in my deck is Hellkite Charger + Bear Umbra / Sword of Feast and Famine. I like chewing peoples faces off with big stompy dragons forever.

_________________
2C:
Nath (Elves everywhere); Wort, the Raidmother (Goblins everywhere)
Shards:
Big Mac and Pickles (Angus Mackenzie Control inc. Pickles Lock)|Sharuum (Artifact Combo)|Garza Zol (Vampires+Goodstuff); Sedris (I can steal anything); Nicol Bolas (WIP)|Kresh (Jund Good Stuff);Karrthus (Dragon Tokens Everywhere)|Tamanoa (Earthquakes Galore)
Wedges:
Oros (Life gaining Pings)|Riku's Perfect Snowstorm (Variety of Storms+Snow)|Doran the Explorer (Wall Tribal)|Ruhan (Voltron);Zedruu (Enchantments)
5C:
Scion (Dragon Stompy Midrange)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-13 4:41 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jun-04 2:20 pm
Age: Dragon
Nature's Will is also pretty awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-13 4:52 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-05 7:30 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, I was running nature's will until Sword of F&F came out. I didn't want to increase the count because it felt about right to do it every so often, but not every game.

_________________
2C:
Nath (Elves everywhere); Wort, the Raidmother (Goblins everywhere)
Shards:
Big Mac and Pickles (Angus Mackenzie Control inc. Pickles Lock)|Sharuum (Artifact Combo)|Garza Zol (Vampires+Goodstuff); Sedris (I can steal anything); Nicol Bolas (WIP)|Kresh (Jund Good Stuff);Karrthus (Dragon Tokens Everywhere)|Tamanoa (Earthquakes Galore)
Wedges:
Oros (Life gaining Pings)|Riku's Perfect Snowstorm (Variety of Storms+Snow)|Doran the Explorer (Wall Tribal)|Ruhan (Voltron);Zedruu (Enchantments)
5C:
Scion (Dragon Stompy Midrange)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-23 2:14 am 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-06 5:57 am
Age: Drake
Hey all, thanks for the constructive comments!

I really like the idea of Hellkite Charger & Sword of F&F, so I'm putting that in :)
I'm also cutting Necropotence in favor of Phyrexian Arena because my hand is stocked most of the time and for Necro to be really effective you need to be able to empty your hand quicker. Also, Phyrexian Arena is easier on my manabase.

+1 Hellkite Charger
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+1 Legacy Weapon
+1 Phyrexian Arena
+1 Temple Garden
-1 Myojin of Night's Reach
-1 Numot, the Devastator
-1 Nevinyrral's Disk
-1 Necropotence
-1 Strip Mine

I'm not entirely sure if cutting Numot is the way to go, but I've never fetched him with Scion, which says it all.

In my first draft of this deck I played with the idea of Soldevi Digger to return dragons to my library but playing has proved this is not necessary. I usually don't play Scion until I'm ready to kill my most dangerous opponent in two big turns (Bolas into Tyrant) This deck simply controls the game up until that point. I often even "forget" all about my commander ;) Also, dragons with comes into play abilities don't trigger when fetched with Scion and Malfegor does me more harm than good (having to throw away on average 5 cards.) He's only good in 1 vs 1 games where you get swarmed. Prismatic Omen is something to think about, but after cutting Strip Mine for Temple Garden my mana base has improved a great deal.

I also like the idea of Living Death + Karrthus but I think that changes the focus of the deck a bit too much. It's great to do once, but next time they'll see it coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-23 12:29 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-05 7:30 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If you're finding that you don't wind up playing Scion that much, that's probably due to your low dragon count. I see 9. Check out the link below for a discussion of the various dragons you could consider.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7114

Scion -> Bladewing -> Teneb -> Recur Bladewing -> Switch to another Dragon -> Recur Teneb forms an awesome chain, as it creates a very solid board position with no cards played from hand. This allows you to continue accumulating cards in hand whilst forcing people to find and expend solutions. This alone justifies playing scion every game.

I'm not so keen on the use of
Black Bringer - there are better ways to tutor e.g. Rune-Scarred Demon
Mindslaver - Personal preference. There are a lot of good ways to win for this deck, it doesn't need slaver
Helm of Obedience
Cruel Ultimatum - too mana intensive
Dimir Machinations - too restrictive, there are better options that cost less.
Chainer's Edict - IMO bad in this format. Unless you face a lot of Voltron/Uril it's plain bad.
Maelstrom Pulse - I like things to be instant, mass, 187 or steal. Consider Austere Command, Pernicious Deed, Gilded Drake, Blatant Thievery, Angel of Despair, Necrotic Sliver or Beast Within

Mana wise I would...
Cut
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Thawing Glaciers
Shizo
Wasteland
Maze of Ith
One or two of
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Explosive Vegetation
Far Wanderings
Because you are low on basics/coloured sources

Consider in their place
More Basics
More Shocks, Duals or Fetches (if you can)
Reflecting Pool
Homeward Path
Kor Haven in Maze's Place
Grim Discovery, Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam to recur Fetches
Primeval Titan - like that needed saying
Skyshroud Claim
Eternal Dragon
Tithe
Oracle of Mul Daya - It just wins games.
Expedition Map - if you fetch Academy first, you are pretty much sorted.
Coalition Relic

Recursion wise you are missing some stellar cards
Karmic Guide
Necromancy
Victimize
Patriarch's Bidding
Living Death
Saffi Eriksdotter - Excellent with Bladewing and Teneb
Unburial Rites

Also with so many instants and sorceries the following wouldn't go amiss
Mnemonic Wall
Izzet Chronarch
Charmbreaker Devils - It may say random, but it often doesn't feel like that. First time I played this, I managed to replay a vampiric tutor 6 times in one game.

Can I also recommend Mistmeadow Witch as a personal favourite. I mentioned that powerful chain earlier. If you have Mistmeadow Witch in play, you can exile Bladewing in response to a wrath. At EoT return Bladewing and recur Teneb to reset your board position back to awesome. Unless you face 2 wraths you can probably get the witch back next turn. She is also very cool with EtB in general particularly Gilded Drake. Can also disrupt attacks a la Maze.

_________________
2C:
Nath (Elves everywhere); Wort, the Raidmother (Goblins everywhere)
Shards:
Big Mac and Pickles (Angus Mackenzie Control inc. Pickles Lock)|Sharuum (Artifact Combo)|Garza Zol (Vampires+Goodstuff); Sedris (I can steal anything); Nicol Bolas (WIP)|Kresh (Jund Good Stuff);Karrthus (Dragon Tokens Everywhere)|Tamanoa (Earthquakes Galore)
Wedges:
Oros (Life gaining Pings)|Riku's Perfect Snowstorm (Variety of Storms+Snow)|Doran the Explorer (Wall Tribal)|Ruhan (Voltron);Zedruu (Enchantments)
5C:
Scion (Dragon Stompy Midrange)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-29 4:29 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-06 5:57 am
Age: Drake
Another round of great suggestions Daan! Most of the cuts you suggest have felt like cards to cut while playing but I needed a little push, thanks :)

These are the changes I've made to the deck today:

+1 Kor Haven
+1 Coalition Relic
+1 Oracle of Mul Daya
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Expedition Map (great idea with the Ruins, and fetchable with Tinker Mage if need be)
+1 Blatant Thievery
+1 Charmbreaker Devils (this guy might prove to be nuts in this deck)
-1 Kodama's Reach
-1 Explosive Vegetation
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Dimir Machinations
-1 Chainer's Edict
-1 Cruel Ultimatum
-1 Helm of Obedience

I'm still working on including Patriarch's Bidding and upping the Dragon count by returning Numot, the Devastator to the deck and adding Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund (also previously suggested by Sinis.) I'll probably cut Bringer of the Black Dawn, Mindslaver and ... well, as I said, I'm working on it :) I do need to mention that some members of my playgroup like their tribes a bit much for Patriarch's Bidding to be truly effective. However, there's another playgroup (which I frequent less) who are more EDH minded where I could do my Bidding (hehe)

I think I'll replace Maelstrom Pulse with Pernicious Deed. It's the extra sweeper I'm looking for after cutting the Disk earlier.

I've also taken another look at my mana and cutting most of the basic land search from the deck (both spells and lands) fixes a lot of issues:

+1 Reflecting Pool
+1 Breeding Pool
+1 Blood Crypt
+1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Llanowar Wastes
+1 Underground River
+1 Yavimaya Coast
+1 Dust Bowl
+1 Swamp
-1 Forest
-1 Island
-1 Mountain
-1 Plains
-1 Wasteland
-1 Evolving Wilds
-1 Terramorphic Expanse
-1 Thawing Glaciers
-1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse

Lots of changes, maybe I should update the original post huh?

As for the your Bladewing->Teneb thing. Can't I just attack with Scion, fetch Teneb, let the trigger go on the stack targetting Teneb and fetch another dragon to avoid the Legend rule?

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-30 3:48 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 2:19 am
Age: Wyvern
misterQ wrote:

As for the your Bladewing->Teneb thing. Can't I just attack with Scion, fetch Teneb, let the trigger go on the stack targetting Teneb and fetch another dragon to avoid the Legend rule?


No, since when you have fetched Teneb, and let trigger resolve, scion is now copy of teneb, and teneb has not scion's ability. BUT what you can do is, that you activate scion's ability twice, letting 1st ability resolve and fetch bladewing, let scion became that, then let 2nd ability from scion resolve and fetch teneb to animate bladewing you fetched. You would need another fatty to animate now with bladewing but it still works this way. (this way i thinked it but somehow managed to write it wrong here)

About your changes, i dunno how good is Blatant Thievery. You could run Keiga in that slot, since you can easily animate scion from graveyard still. I would also add Greater Good since it's just nuts with all recur you can run. Sac couple dragons, draw cards, discard more fatties, play Patriarch's bidding. Yeah. I would also run Reanimate, since it's cheap to use and life loss doesn't matter all that much. That being said, you want to run High Market and Miren, the moaning Well / Diamond Valley to protect your guys from stealing, gaining life and getting fatties to GY for animate.


Last edited by Genesis on 2011-Dec-31 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-30 12:28 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-06 5:57 am
Age: Drake
Yes, you're right about the copy ability. Even says so explicitly in gatherer:
Quote:
When Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of another Dragon, it loses its copy ability for the rest of the turn.


Genesis wrote:
BUT what you can do is, that you activate scion's ability twice, letting 1st ability resolve and fetch a dragon you want to recur, let scion became that, then let 2nd ability from scion resolve and fetch bladewing to animate 1st dragon you fetched.

I don't think Bladewing's CiP ability triggers when you fetch it with Scion (since Scion is already "on the battlefield") so no cute reanimation tricks I'm affraid. Unless I'm getting it all wrong *puzzled look* but I'm pretty sure the "enters the battlefield" ability doesn't trigger when you activate Scion's copy ability.

I don't know if I can find room for more lands that tap for colorless mana (I just finished eliminating a bunch to fix my mana base) but Greater Good seems like a really good sac outlet :)

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-30 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 2:19 am
Age: Wyvern
misterQ wrote:
Yes, you're right about the copy ability. Even says so explicitly in gatherer:
Quote:
When Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of another Dragon, it loses its copy ability for the rest of the turn.


Genesis wrote:
BUT what you can do is, that you activate scion's ability twice, letting 1st ability resolve and fetch a dragon you want to recur, let scion became that, then let 2nd ability from scion resolve and fetch bladewing to animate 1st dragon you fetched.

I don't think Bladewing's CiP ability triggers when you fetch it with Scion (since Scion is already "on the battlefield") so no cute reanimation tricks I'm affraid. Unless I'm getting it all wrong *puzzled look* but I'm pretty sure the "enters the battlefield" ability doesn't trigger when you activate Scion's copy ability.

I don't know if I can find room for more lands that tap for colorless mana (I just finished eliminating a bunch to fix my mana base) but Greater Good seems like a really good sac outlet :)


Yeah, you are right about bladewing. Thinked something else when replied :D There is also another sweet reanimaton spell, Victimize. Sacrifice scion and return Bladewing and Karthus, bladewing returns scion -> attack with haste due karthus.


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-30 2:28 pm 

Joined: 2010-Aug-27 1:23 pm
Age: Wyvern
Please repost your list, I have no idea what is and is not on the list, for purposes of being helpful??


But I will try anyway.
Helm of Obedience is fantastic..... if you are running leyline of the void.
Killing an opponent every turn is pretty good.

Numot is a must if you are playing competitive, but a must cut if you plan on remaining friends with anyone at the table. (as is true for land destruction in general).

I would reiterate the suggestions of Keiga and Greater Good, both can be drastically helpful

Hope this helps


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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-31 4:27 am 
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Joined: 2011-Dec-06 5:57 am
Age: Drake
Here's the updated list:

Commander:
Scion of the Ur-Dragon

Dragons:
Hellkite Overlord
Nicol Bolas
Dragon Tyrant
Quicksilver Dragon
Hellkite Charger
Teneb, the Harvester
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen

Other creatures:
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Charmbreaker Devils
Oracle of Mul Daya
Solemn Simulacrum
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness
Snapcaster Mage
Nezumi Graverobber

Planeswalkers:
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Liliana Vess

Artifacts:
Sol Ring
Expedition Map
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Mirari
Mindslaver
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Oblivion Stone
Legacy Weapon
Lightning Greaves
Sword of Feast and Famine

Enchantments:
Sylvan Library
Debtors' Knell
Phyrexian Arena
Mana Reflection
Animate Dead
Future Sight
Pernicious Deed

Instants:
Putrefy
Cunning Wish
Mortify
Forbidden Alchemy
Shred Memory
Fact or Fiction

Sorceries:
Hull Breach
Reap and Sow
Tooth and Nail
Cultivate
Life from the Loam
Blatant Thievery
Reanimate
Farseek
All Suns' Dawn
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Regrowth
Far Wanderings
Beacon of Unrest

Lands:
City of Brass
Command Tower
Reflecting Pool
Bayou
Overgrown Tomb
Llanowar Wastes
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Underground River
Polluted Delta
Tropical Island
Breeding Pool
Yavimaya Coast
Misty Rainforest
Badlands
Blood Crypt
Bloodstained Mire
Taiga
Stomping Ground
Wooded Foothills
Scrubland
Godless Shrine
Temple Garden
Bojuka Bog
Krosan Verge
Volrath's Stronghold
Dust Bowl
Academy Ruins
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Kor Haven
3 Swamp
Forest
Island
Mountain
Plains

Sideboard:
Condemn
Spell Crumple
Coffin Purge
Capsize
Bant Charm
Swords to Plowshares
Diabolic Edict
Krosan Grip
Pulse of the Fields
Beast Within

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 Post subject: Re: Scion of the BUr-rokenness
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-31 8:34 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 2:19 am
Age: Wyvern
There's still several cards what i could cut and add other cards. I would advice looking here if you haven't already: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315423

That list has some money cards there (imperial seal, grim tutor)ut you can do fine without them.


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