Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-15 2:48 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-02 1:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
ludd_gang wrote:
@ Kelen: Check out Realms.

The pros and cons of the format are often one and the same:

Shared decks. This is good because everyone is on equal footing, but bad because it lacks the ego investment.

No mana screw/flood. This is good because it comes down to skill, but... luck is a nice buffer for the MTG loss psychology.

You need someone to build the deck. This is great if you have an OCD type to balance an enormous assortment of cards. If you don't, a slopped-together deck is less conducive to fun.



So you are saying to get an EDH cube?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-02 2:02 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-03 8:55 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
ludd_gang wrote:
@ Kelen: Check out Realms.

The pros and cons of the format are often one and the same:

Shared decks. This is good because everyone is on equal footing, but bad because it lacks the ego investment.

No mana screw/flood. This is good because it comes down to skill, but... luck is a nice buffer for the MTG loss psychology.

You need someone to build the deck. This is great if you have an OCD type to balance an enormous assortment of cards. If you don't, a slopped-together deck is less conducive to fun.



So you are saying to get an EDH cube?


Nope. It's more like type 4 with lands. Maybe I'm missing the comparison though... There's no general.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Mar-04 12:05 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-02 12:25 pm
Age: Hatchling
So many of these threads on every forum about Commander, makes me SO happy that I just NEVER encounter this shit. Current playgroup (over 7 years now) plays FUN stuff. Hell, sometimes I play Norin and my friend Pheldagriff and we make sure NOBODY dies, so if one person gets ganged up by a /lol MSW deck, either he has the defending player draw all the cards to counter, or I just reset the entire game by pulling off a weird-ass chaos combo to make sure one person doesnt ramp into a turn 7 kill everyone nobody had fun. We play commanders like merieke, gaddock teeg, doran, kaalia. All very basic and fun, though we do have our 'annoying' decks like Shirei and Zur, but we don't stack those with inifi-anything. In my Aurelia deck I have a minute chance of having inifinite attack rounds, but that will not happen until I have at least 6 cards out that I need (no tutors) OR I have a kiki-jiki+restoration angel but I just decided NOT to use that combo, I will only tap my kiki for 1 resto angel, then bounce a creature I need to rescue, not create 90000000000000 tokens with haste that results in a /boring game. I guess you should try finding a playgroup online perhaps that lives nearby that is okay with playing like a true "casual" gamer should. Casual used to mean casual, not just 'I don't make money with this shit but I still want to combo out in turn 3" Good luck on finding that, and indeed do not add all these cards to your decks due to Meta, fighting fire with fire really isn't the solution. Good luck!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Mar-06 3:59 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-18 1:53 am
Age: Wyvern
It seems to me that playing EDH is like making a new friend (as silly and corny as that may be). You ideally want to be friends with someone that has a similar mindset as you and also make sure that person is not an asshole. You can take this as a reflection when playing EDH. You ideally want to play with someone that has a similar mindset as you; in this case since we are talking about EDH that mindset can be someone that plays causally or someone that plays competitively. In either case you can't find out about the person or the play group without playing with said person or play group. Once you do, you can than decided if you want to keep on playing with them or not.

Usually when I build a deck I ask myself one question, "If someone were to play this deck against me, would I have fun?" I than edit or tweak my deck from there. When I play a game of EDH and someone at the table is really competitive and is (at least in the eyes of the people at the table) ruining the game or making the game less fun I ask myself, "Am I playing for money or a new life?" Answer is no, so I try to shrug off whatever this player is doing and remind myself we are playing a game where we pretend to be wizards.

What I do when I encounter a new group of players I ask them, "Do you play with infect or massive land destruction or taking infinite turns or locking the game?" If anyone of them says yes, I tell sorry but I can't play you with guys. That's just me; I personally don't enjoy that when I play EDH. In return I let people know if my deck does something that people might not find enjoyable. For example when I sit down at the table and I put down Nath of the Gilt-Leaf as my general I let them know my deck makes players discard their cards, is this going to be a problem? If someone speaks up, I’ll switch to a different deck. Does it suck that I’m not playing a deck I want to play, yes; but will this decision promote a better game where we have more fun, yes…to me that’s more important. I can always play that deck against my close friends who already know what it can do and knows how to deal with it.

I know some of you will say something akin to, “You should play whatever deck you want.” Or, “It’s not your fault that you have a better deck.” I will say to you that yes, you are right. But on the other hand, I want to play the game and if people don’t like me or how I play than guess what…no one is going to play with me.

EDH is a social game, and with it comes a lot of social quo’s that are understood but not written in stone. There is not law in America that says you have to open a door for a lady, but it’s understood as the polite thing to do. When you have 3 or four people at the table setting up for a game that everyone has already noted in their heads as being a long fun game but then someone ends it all on turn 3. There is nothing in the rules of EDH that says you can’t do it, but it’s understood that maybe you shouldn’t do it to a bunch of new people you never met when you’re playing a game where the winner wins nothing.

Of course this is all different if you go an EDH Tournament or some grand event where the balance of casual vs competition is skewed. A few months ago I entered an EDH Tournament, mostly because I never been to one. There I fully entered knowing that people are not going to hold back, that people will play combos and cards that I don’t like, and lastly I’m not going to give full disclosure of my deck. Why, because there was a prize. Even though I lost, I had fun because everyone was on the same page.

I know this post is long and I ramble off a bit; so I will finish off with this. You can’t fix the format because it’s out of our hands; it’s in the hands of the Rules Committee. What we can do is use some commonsense and use our knowledge of social quo’s to regulate our actions; and we must accept that this is a lot easier/harder for others.

_________________
check out my EDH blog @ DEADLYRECLUSE.COM


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Mar-06 4:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Jan-25 6:53 pm
Age: Drake
I run a group called MTG Commander Central Ohio, which I am trying to network with players throughout Central Ohio. We mostly meet at The Comic Shop Plus in Newark. We get a steady group of players here, which is very nice; there's always a game going on.

Here lately, I've noticed there's been some rising problems. You see, when you get the same people playing in games constantly, they start to tune their decks toward each others which leads to people running douchey cards and combos, which then leads to a lot of people running these combos.

I noticed it was really upsetting people, so I took the initiative to start up a points system. I collaborated with the shop's manager to get some support with this system. After all, I needed the points to build toward something.

I came up with the following:

The Boggs Point System

+1 for playing
+1 for taking a player out
+1 for winning the table
+1 if you get ganged up on multiple times (this is determined by an outside person, like a shop employee, me, or appointed Judges)

-3 infinite combo*
-3 mass land destruction*
-1 for doing something douchey and scooping (like playing Sorrin, dropping someone to 10 then scooping the game)

*While getting negative points is bad, it does not take away your current build up of points and does not take you into the negative. For example, if you play a game that's +1 and if you win that's +1. However, if you used an infinite combo and auto-won, it's a -3, which takes you to 0.

Limit 3 games per day count for points. Players choose the games upon conclusion of the games.

The Rewards:

20 pts = Promo, Shop's choice
35 pts = Promo, Player's choice
50 pts = 10% off Singles*
80 pts = 25% off Singles*

*Cannot be combined with any other discount of promotion.

When players redeem these points, they are essentially spending their points. The shop has a spreadsheet with all the players and the amount of points they have.



Since this system was initiated, I've noticed people are enjoying games more. They are getting rewarded for playing and taking out players. Oftentimes, there will be two people tied for points in games. I know it's not feasible for everyone to try this since it does take getting the store to support it. If you have a local shop that you play at often, it doesn't hurt to ask :-)

Hope this helps and shows there are options!

_________________
"I am the Dragon. And you call me insane. You are privy to a great becoming, but you recognize nothing. To me, you are a slug in the sun. You are an ant in the afterbirth. It is your nature to do one thing correctly. Before me, you rightly tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe."
Francis Dolarhyde - Red Dragon


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Apr-16 9:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Jun-06 8:38 am
Age: Drake
Location: Lakewood, CO
I think it's all about being selective about which individuals you play with. I wouldn't go as far as to kick someone out of a store for being a spike, but you certainly don't have to play magic with them if you find them so unpleasant.

Boggsman wrote:
The Boggs Point System

+1 for playing
+1 for taking a player out
+1 for winning the table
+1 if you get ganged up on multiple times (this is determined by an outside person, like a shop employee, me, or appointed Judges)

-3 infinite combo*
-3 mass land destruction*
-1 for doing something douchey and scooping (like playing Sorrin, dropping someone to 10 then scooping the game)

*While getting negative points is bad, it does not take away your current build up of points and does not take you into the negative. For example, if you play a game that's +1 and if you win that's +1. However, if you used an infinite combo and auto-won, it's a -3, which takes you to 0.

Limit 3 games per day count for points. Players choose the games upon conclusion of the games.

The Rewards:

20 pts = Promo, Shop's choice
35 pts = Promo, Player's choice
50 pts = 10% off Singles*
80 pts = 25% off Singles*

*Cannot be combined with any other discount of promotion.

When players redeem these points, they are essentially spending their points. The shop has a spreadsheet with all the players and the amount of points they have.



Since this system was initiated, I've noticed people are enjoying games more. They are getting rewarded for playing and taking out players. Oftentimes, there will be two people tied for points in games. I know it's not feasible for everyone to try this since it does take getting the store to support it. If you have a local shop that you play at often, it doesn't hurt to ask :-)

Hope this helps and shows there are options!


^also this.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-May-08 6:16 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Boggsman wrote:
I run a group called MTG Commander Central Ohio, which I am trying to network with players throughout Central Ohio. We mostly meet at The Comic Shop Plus in Newark. We get a steady group of players here, which is very nice; there's always a game going on.

Here lately, I've noticed there's been some rising problems. You see, when you get the same people playing in games constantly, they start to tune their decks toward each others which leads to people running douchey cards and combos, which then leads to a lot of people running these combos.

I noticed it was really upsetting people, so I took the initiative to start up a points system. I collaborated with the shop's manager to get some support with this system. After all, I needed the points to build toward something.

I came up with the following:

The Boggs Point System

+1 for playing
+1 for taking a player out
+1 for winning the table
+1 if you get ganged up on multiple times (this is determined by an outside person, like a shop employee, me, or appointed Judges)

-3 infinite combo*
-3 mass land destruction*
-1 for doing something douchey and scooping (like playing Sorrin, dropping someone to 10 then scooping the game)

*While getting negative points is bad, it does not take away your current build up of points and does not take you into the negative. For example, if you play a game that's +1 and if you win that's +1. However, if you used an infinite combo and auto-won, it's a -3, which takes you to 0.

Limit 3 games per day count for points. Players choose the games upon conclusion of the games.

The Rewards:

20 pts = Promo, Shop's choice
35 pts = Promo, Player's choice
50 pts = 10% off Singles*
80 pts = 25% off Singles*

*Cannot be combined with any other discount of promotion.

When players redeem these points, they are essentially spending their points. The shop has a spreadsheet with all the players and the amount of points they have.



Since this system was initiated, I've noticed people are enjoying games more. They are getting rewarded for playing and taking out players. Oftentimes, there will be two people tied for points in games. I know it's not feasible for everyone to try this since it does take getting the store to support it. If you have a local shop that you play at often, it doesn't hurt to ask :-)

Hope this helps and shows there are options!


To be honest I'm still fairly new considering commander, but I don't see why players should be punished for having an infinite combo. You are discriminating against their play style. Not everyone in commander has a smash your face deck, some people like to play protective, and try to win in one shot. I've also encountered my share of people in real life, and on the forums who are just way too competitive. Like magic is the only thing in their life that they are winning at, and that being "good" in magic is worth more than life its self to them. Plus most player I come across, play standard and modern which encourages the win by turn 4 strategies. Sadly there is nothing you can do unless you talk to wizards about changing standard and modern to last more than 4 turns. So when players come to commander, they don't think how can I win and have fun, because more of the players come to commander thinking "how can I win the fastest so I can show off and be a dick".

Secondly my Lazav deck (main one) isn't "good" by professional standards because the only tutor card I run is increasing ambition. I usually end up winning because I have multiple combos I come across in, and I adapt to the board state. Early game I hope for bloodcheif ascension, and mindcrank. While mind crank is needed in my deck since I'm Mill, discard, and draw, bloodchief ascension has wonderful synergy if left alone to do its thing. There are 3 turns to deal with either mindcrank or bloodchief. Late game if I'm allowed to keep omniscience, I can do wonderful things, such as unlimited archanomancers with rites of replication, sadly they do not have haste, so by turn 10ish (turn 7 at best and turn 11 at worst if I have all the cards in my hand) I have a massive army, yet you can board wipe the 1/2 creatures easily if you're smart and save your board wipes for times you need them. I also run a lot of nasty cards, yet my deck is fair because the only mana ramps are chromatic lantern, mystic speculation, and the lands that tap for 2 mana and return a land to my hand. So I'm usually useless till turn 4. I also can still win by the typical reducing their life, because this is more towards Dimir mill (hurt while I mill you). I also run a lot of "expensive and rare cards" The reason is so that my deck can be "barely playable" (a term most people who view my deck say). I add them in for the synergy, and because their ability isn't found in cheaper cards sadly :<

Thirdly here is a suggestion for ranking players. The idea is to encourage more and benefit a wider variety of decks, instead of the infinite combo, and decks that sit back and watch type of play style.

2 points for wining the game
1 point for doing the most damage to a player (because it's not fair taking credit if someone else did most of the work, in case of a tie the point is split between all players, damage depends on if the opponent loses by being milled in the sense of the library being damaged or loss of life)
1 point for killing a player, and making them lose (Either by reducing their life to 0 or reducing their library to 0, if both happen cases happen by two the players get 0.5 of a point, this point is given by a first come first server bases, and doesn't count if either library or life is at 0)
1 point for each allied player you win or force to end the game in a draw with (there are cards out there which allow multiple players to win, and end the game in a tie, so players running decks like this should be rewarded)
1 point for each vote players rate you as most fun deck to play within the game (players should vote a deck they enjoyed to play with)
-1 point for each vote being rated the least fun deck to play with
If a player forfeits, their points and votes become 0.

This format for commander tournaments should be a little more fair both in judging players and encouraging fun games, because you can win the game by holding out until turn 6-8, but you would end up missing out on dealing the most damage to other players. So you can win the game get two points by playing a deck that focuses on being selfish, and holding out until everyone is weakened but the most points you can achieve would be 6. If players don't find you deck "fun" since commander is a social format the lowest score you would get is 2. The winner should be decided on the deck who scores the most points.

Prizes should be given to players with the most points and the player who is most fun to play with. One player cannot win both prizes.

Of course to point ranking system is based off of my opinion and is just a suggestion, meaning that you can ignore it or dislike it; just don't be rude about it. I was just putting my 2 cents in.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Jul-27 7:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
@Bull:

Thank you, but tutor, tutor, tutor combo turn 5 is still boring.
1) Synergy-Combo (strong synergy) = fine
2) Random Combo (in the deck but not the deck) = well, ok
3) Combo-Decks (tutored and maxed out) = BAD!
nuff said.

All those point systems are like mildly teaching methods for the unwilling. And they will fail, every single one of them, as long as you play with competitive spikes. They are ruining this format right now, period. Decks around "mass landdestruction" or "combo turn 5" are everywhere right now. And the comittee is letting them do so, because they and are afraid of loosing their popularity (which is ok, I guess). But I don't care anymore. Sheldon might believe in the "spirit of EDH", I lost that faith over the last years ... the hard way.

I totally agree with Aggro_zombies on that: "Relying on gentlemens' agreements to keep the format from degenerating into a broken mess just doesn't cut it" anymore.

The end of my story: After three years I finally found a playgroup, discussed the problems, we made a custom banlist and declared that "fun" is the goal of the format. I play once a week now with them, only multiplayer. It is ok, but I will NEVER (not on conventions, not with other playgroups, not in other gamestores) play commander outside of that group ever again.

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Jul-28 2:18 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think there is a lot lost in translation from kitchen table EDH and LGS/MTGO Commander. I can't say spikes ruin the format because there isn't someone that is 100% spikey, there are people that are 100% douchey asswipes for an evening. Competitiveness is not really one of those things that negatively impacts the format, the desire or lack thereof for social interaction does.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Sep-20 4:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Sep-17 5:02 pm
Age: Drake
The only problem with commander is fast mana. This is a famous quote (not word for word), "If people used the moxen and lotus to power out a turn 2 shivan dragon, it wouldn't be a problem."

I almost always want to pick up my deck every time someone lands t1 sol ring/crypt -> signet. T2 they have 5 mana, which in most cases quickly degenerates in to combo/lock before turn 4.

If the tier 1 mana rocks were banned, games would be much more pleasant. I don't think it is oppressive at all for a player to land T5 Mikey (signet/everflowing/dynamo etc) and then try to resolve T6 trisky. As a combo player myself, I usually NEVER try to resolve a single combo piece and pasing turn...it's way too easy to disrupt that way. I see mikey/triskey as a turn 12 (land drop every turn w/o mana rocks) combo. Turn 12 I would hope the game is nearly over anyways, so I should either be dead or in good position to resolve my combo.

/2 cents


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Oct-09 8:42 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-03 7:47 pm
Age: Hatchling
Unless players are forced not to play with their investments (Though banning’s or similar) they are going to continue putting them into decks, namely those who have Sol Rings, Mana Crypts, Mana Drains and the like. The community will not improve (in my opinion) under the current circumstances. I have to agree, it’s been awhile since I’ve played a good solid EDH game. Now I know that no matter what, there are going to be those who try to be unfair and there are going to be those who have the sole goal playing a deck which doesn’t interact with opponents which ends up being “Hey look at all of my deck, how pimp it is, and how it runs” the equivalent to just sitting and watching someone fishbowl. But I believe this kind of Situation can be fixed. Let it be known (though my opinion counts little I know) I reason that aggressively costed unfair cards should be treated with a more aggressive view as to whether they should be on the ban list. Sol Ring, Mishra’s Workshop (How on earth is this legal?), Mana crypt, Mana Drain, Mana Vault, among others, have absolutely no place in Commander.
Now I do have to say that there seems to be such a large gap between those who play EDH casually and those who are far more serious and it causes problems. People who don’t play board wipes or spells that interact with their opponents are another reason I believe EDH is the way it is. If People built decks which interact with their opponents (though not to the point of soft locks), with appropriated banning’s as an addition, I think it would even out the play field and make for a more enjoyable Commander/EDH experience.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Oct-09 7:00 pm 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mana Drain is much less impressive in EDH, than legacy.

Banning sol ring and other fast mana rocks is counter productive: that would only vastly increase the power of green's ramp.

Face it: this format is broken, has always been, and will always be.

In order to participate; you need an established group of EDH-playing friends. Without that, you may as well get involved in tournament play, and that is not fun either.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Oct-09 11:15 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
green slime wrote:
Mana Drain is much less impressive in EDH, than legacy.


Are we playing the same format?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Oct-10 4:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
green slime wrote:
Mana Drain is much less impressive in EDH, than legacy.


Are we playing the same format?


http://www.dragonhighlander.net/Forum/v ... f=3&t=4205

Apparently. We might not be reading the same message board though....


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Oct-10 4:16 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I honestly don't think I'm playing the same format as any of you...

I actually like it when my opponents are having fun too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: