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 Post subject: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 7:34 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
So... out of curiousity, what's the rationale that LED is banned? I mean, it's cute with Madness/Flashback cards, but really, it can't be on the level of some of the other cards that find their way on to that list... can it?

Not to stir the pot, but surely Crucible of Worlds has more degenerate combos than a card that makes you pitch your hand as a *cost*. Is it problematic with Memory Jar or Magus of the Jar? Is there something I just don't know?

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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 8:17 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
You ran LED for infinite mana-combos I believe. Its one of those cards that is banned because you will only run it for one reason, and that reason was to make some infinite mana loop.

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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 8:24 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Boshea wrote:
You ran LED for infinite mana-combos I believe. Its one of those cards that is banned because you will only run it for one reason, and that reason was to make some infinite mana loop.

I see nothing wrong with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 8:36 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-02 9:50 pm
Age: Drake
I hear a turn 1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath is pretty scary too...

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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 8:56 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-19 1:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Have you ever stared down a turn 1 Goblin Charblecher and then they drop down a Lion's Eye Diamond, they activate, discard their hand and then deal 20+ damage to you on turn 1?

I suggest putting yourself in that situation, it'll uh, build character, and stuff.

LED's cost can also be used to speed up dredge strategies, it tops off combos, and it gets substantially better once you factor in that you can just use it to get your general out stupidly fast.. (Turn 1 Skithiryx with haste anyone?)

I don't think it's quite 'ban-worthy', although it certainly enables some nutty, nutty things to happen very early in the game, LED is like tinker, no one is ever going to use it to be nice. Ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 8:59 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gravy wrote:
Have you ever stared down a turn 1 Goblin Charblecher and then they drop down a Lion's Eye Diamond, they activate, discard their hand and then deal 20+ damage to you on turn 1?

I suggest putting yourself in that situation, it'll uh, build character, and stuff.

LED's cost can also be used to speed up dredge strategies, it top off combos, and it gets substantially better once you factor in that you can just use it to get your general out stupidly fast.. (Turn 1 Skithiryx with haste anyone?)

I don't think it's quite 'ban-worthy', although it certainly enables some nutty, nutty things to happen very early in the game, LED is like tinker, no one is ever going to use it to be nice. Ever.


I must argue with the final statement of your post; I once used Tinker to summon up a Gauntlet of Power and named Red; for an opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 9:34 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
One time, on the N train, I actually got up and let an old lady sit in the handicapped seat. But just that one time.

Every rule gets broken once in a while.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-22 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
As Rishana implied but did not explicitly say, it allows you to have a Black Lotus worth of mana without drawback when it comes to casting your Commander. Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon are perfect examples of aggro generals that would be better - in fact nearly impossible to handle based on normal expectations of spot removal in the format - if they had more potential for turn 1-3 casts.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-23 12:19 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
You'd play it with Auriok Salvagers or not at all. Thus, no real reason not to have it banned.

Sure, you could use the mana to cast a general, but if I remove your general after that, there's no way you're getting back into the game, so I absolutely wouldn't mind playing against someone who uses LED for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-23 6:04 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Urg, I didn't think about casting your general with it. Blarg.

I had my sights set on playing crappy madness and flashback cards (or, at very worst, abusing Dralnu). Some of the other stuff didn't seem quite so bad (well, except the goblin charbelcher; Akroma and others can be dealt with).

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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-28 10:00 am 

Joined: 2010-Jul-08 9:30 am
Age: Hatchling
Isn't Mana Crypt even stronger than LED, especially in Commander?


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-01 7:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mugaaz wrote:
Isn't Mana Crypt even stronger than LED, especially in Commander?


Actually, not.

Mana Crypt, while strong, does not provide non-colorless mana, and requires an initial investment of 1 mana to play.

Turn one, land, mana crypt, 3 colorless mana.

Or turn one, land, LED, 4 mana of any one color, or one of one color, and three of the other color, are pretty powerful. Especialyl if you're doing mean things such as:

Plains,
Lion's Eye Diamond
Announce Steely Resolve as being cast naming kithkin
Crack diamond for GGG
Discard all cards in hand,
Steely Resolve resolves,
cast Gaddock Teeg

Then, if you're lucky, your opponent doesn't have sphere of resistance and trinisphere hiding around somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-01 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
@ moraff

1) Mana Crypt =/= Mana Vault.

2) LED's timing restriction (oracle text) prevents you from activating the ability when you don't have priority, so you can't crack it for mana while casting another spell. You do it either before casting a spell that's not in your hand (general from the command zone, flashback Deep Analysis), in response to the spell (empty your hand for Infernal Tutor and use the mana on whatever you fetch with it), or not at all. You can't use the mana to cast spells (such as Steely Resolve) from your hand.

3) You name a creature type for Steely Resolve as it enters the battlefield (during the resolution of either the Resolve or whatever effect brought it onto the battlefield), not when you cast it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lion's Eye Diamond
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-01 3:07 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My apologies for the confusion on the above cards. Once upon a time the LED worked that way. That was before the whole world had Smartphones and Oracle Text on demand though, a very long time ago, and the whole playing of table top magic in the last several years has made my "timing" a bit fuzzy on a lot of things.

Though, with the Oracle Wording change on the LED, I'll need to change my Open EDH Teeg deck now. Rather liked having a shroud Teeg on turn one, but would rather not be called a cheater.

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