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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 10:32 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Treamayne wrote:

Yes, the first response (Uktabi's) answered this quite clearly. The easiest and least-oppressive answers to Teeg are creatures with ETB abilities that will respond to the threat he represents.
There are also things like Vanishing and Astral slide that will allow you to temporarily remove him for your turn, but he's back to limit the other players every other turn


That's actually pretty good, thanks for the input, I didn't knew those cards

spacemonaut wrote:
I agree with that assessment. That's an antisocial deck.

Just... play some creatures. Shore up your vulnerabilities in interactive ways, not in ways that say "all of you can't do your things anymore".

You played hard shutdowns against them. Now they're playing hard shutdowns against you. Feels bad to be on the receiving end of that, right? Well, that's probably at least how bad it has been feeling for them being on the receiving end of your deck.




Wel, just a couple of things, how a control deck wins?

The aim is not that, it is a control deck so the aim is to survive until I can build a wincon, wich doesn't necesary involve a combo, among my wincons are luminarch asension, aetherflux reservoir + 50+ life, etc.
But to get there I need to keep my life total up, and to survive long enought.

The goal of the deck is being the last man standing with a difference in the life total that can make me win attacking with a creeping tarpit if needed.

This is not a stax deck, I am not playing resource denial, people casts whatever they want and resolves everything they want, they have creatures, enchants, artifacts, I dont counter those stuff, I dont steal their stuff, I dont take extra turns and the deck is not tunned for a fast combo, I run 2 combos but they are easy to disrupt and one of those is that hard to do that I am considering cutting it.

Viperion wrote:
alexev wrote:
The nature of my deck... is 'do not attack me', Let me have my board and start form there

So the aim of your deck is "You can't affect me until I win?"

Think about that for just a second. Of course people are going to build decks to try and counter that.

Your deck is not interactive, or fun to play against. So people are responding accordingly.

You have to learn that there are some strategies that people don't like, and 'pillow fort' aka "do not attack me" are one of those kinds of decks.

You did start the arms race. Your choice now is either to end it, or to accept the consequences of your choices.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.



The first version of my deck run some creatures, I use to run a couple of lifelinkers and guess what, people is more afraid of a Serra ascendant than Nekusar, the deck is not an aggro deck, so running creatures proves it bad, a had a couple of creatures but they just did nothing, died at ETB.

And maybe I failed to express what I really meant with this post (remember english is not my native tongue), Off course there is an "arms race" because I feel my group no matter what I play seems to consider me the bigger threat I build this deck aiming to be able to stand a 3v1 with good probabilities of winning.

I susceed in that (won 2 of 4, loss one to mana screw and one to a really bad misplay I did), I am not afraid of Teeg, I just was wondering if, to counter it there were less opresive ways than meddiling mage and nevermore , because adding those cards will make my deck opresive in a way it was not intended to be.

I have played against a nevermore and off course the feeling is bad, when your deck relies on your commander the fact that you can't play it is awful, and thats why I don't really want to add those cards if there is an alternative, but if there is not I will need to keep up the arms race because if there is no alternative

EDIT: because I posted a bad quote

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Last edited by alexev on 2018-Apr-08 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 11:08 pm 
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Dude, come on. You are literally going the exact wrong way about this.

The idea is not to build a deck that can take on 3v1, because then the only way the other players can beat it is to team up 3v1.

Build something friendlier. Yes, you'll get your teeth kicked in a few times because your group will still be expecting your super-hostile 3v1 build. When they realise that's not what you're playing any more, they'll ease up. I promise.

Try it.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-08 11:50 pm 
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Viperion wrote:
Dude, come on. You are literally going the exact wrong way about this.

The idea is not to build a deck that can take on 3v1, because then the only way the other players can beat it is to team up 3v1.

Build something friendlier. Yes, you'll get your teeth kicked in a few times because your group will still be expecting your super-hostile 3v1 build. When they realise that's not what you're playing any more, they'll ease up. I promise.

Try it.


And don't forget the first life of defense. Talk about it! Blatantly ask them "What do I need to do so that every game isn't 3:1 against me? What am I doing that you feel you have no choice but to gang up? I want to stop the "arms race" but I need your help to do that."

Discuss! And do not argue - you are not allowed to defend yourself against anything they say. You are just taking in their thoughts, feelings, and attitude. Think about it for at least 24 hours before you all sit down to discuss (not argue) again. Ask to return the favor and explain to them why you feel so threatened that you think you have no choice to make your decks more and more oppressive.

Find the fun again.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-09 4:02 am 
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alexev wrote:
Wel, just a couple of things, how a control deck wins?


Again- this isn't an issue in EDH. Control decks in EDH have access to 25 years of fatties, undercosted disruption, and other assorted ways to screw with Teeg. Currently, my heaviest control build is only packing 4 board wipes (2 conditional, 2 non-conditional)- because you only need to land one, and you only need to land it at the right time.

Teeg straight up can't fight 1 and 2 mana UW disruption, and gets wrecked by value fatties (my favorite being Angel of Serenity. The Laundrylist of value fatties in every color that can wreck Teeg is too long to list- and the number of cards Teeg makes unplayable is completely undermined by just how much undercosted disruption like Chain of Vapor exists- and how tightly it can be packed into an EDH deck.

If your control deck doesn't begin by establishing it's suite of 1-3 mana disruption tools, you probably aren't actually playing a control deck.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-09 8:18 am 
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Also, something to keep in mind: in a healthy and balanced metagame, any given deck's win percentage should be roughly 1/x, where x is the number of players at any given game. So if you usually play 4-player games, the average win rate of your decks should hover around 25%, or one in four games. If the number is significantly higher than that, either your deck is overpowered for the table or your opponents just aren't good at Magic. Based on what you've been saying, the latter probably isn't the case.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-10 2:00 pm 
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alexev wrote:
but if there is not I will need to keep up the arms race because if there is no alternative

Let me tell you what's going to happen here - if you manage to hate out their hate for your deck, there will be one of 2 results;
1. You don't get to play anymore, because you're no fun to have around or;
2. They escalate things even further and before you know it, your meta will be "who can combo out the table the fastest"?

Neither of these results is ideal.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-11 6:48 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
alexev wrote:
but if there is not I will need to keep up the arms race because if there is no alternative

Let me tell you what's going to happen here - if you manage to hate out their hate for your deck, there will be one of 2 results;
1. You don't get to play anymore, because you're no fun to have around or;
2. They escalate things even further and before you know it, your meta will be "who can combo out the table the fastest"?

Neither of these results is ideal.


My starting builds are as fair as I can think, the thing is that my playgroup seems to focus me every time.

In order to win or to at least be the last man standing I need to build the deck to be able to sustain a 3v1 fight.

Is not what I want, it is what I have.

My first Kaalia build was really bad (bad on purpose) I played a lot of dragons and angels no other Kaalia deck would play because they are plain bad.

In my mind the game would go, turn 4 I cast Kaalia, attack and get a 6/6 flyer that does something, people will kill it or adress it, etc.

The real game went, Kallia is cated and killed, Kaalia is casted and counetered, Kaalia player is deleted at turn 6.

So after that, I am trying to build a Kaalia deck that can handle 3v1 (but I have not susceed in that). What are my options there if I want to play Kaalia and win, going combo?, going MLD?, going full stax? every option is "nasty" but I really don't see wich other thing I can do.

Now I am trying other kaalia thing, I will try it with more fast mana rocks, and some pillowfort cards and maybe a couple lifelinkers to try to sustain me until I can do my magic. I dont know If it will work (probably not) but I won't give up, I want to play Kaalia and I want to play her to win or at least to make a great fight every time

With Oloro was the same thing, I built him as fair as I could, thinking that the game would go with people attacking each other because my board would not be threteaning, the real game scenario went, people focusing me because I have no creatures and more life.

So, if I want to win with Oloro, what are my options? going full combo? Going full stax? I choose to go full pillowfort so I will be able to win without denying other peoples plays

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-11 6:55 am 
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You're not listening. I'm done here. You continue your arms race, and no doubt we'll see you back here soon complaining about how broken the format is.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-11 7:52 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
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Viperion wrote:
You're not listening. I'm done here. You continue your arms race, and no doubt we'll see you back here soon complaining about how broken the format is.


I don't think the format is "broken" and I think that all ways of winning and playing are fair ways, I don't mind if people is playing aggro, control, MLD, stax, Voltron, combo or whatever they want.

Every playgroup is a diferent universe, in my playgroup some people don't like combos, some people don't care, some people plays them.

Our line (and it is ours), are just consistent fast combos, we agreed not to build a consistent T3-4 combos.

So, we play long games, is very rare the ocasion where one of our games doesn't end at before turn 12.

I don't mind to play "the archenemy" I just don't like to play the archenemy without the actual tools to be the archenemy.

In my playgroup evryone builds the deck to win, So if I want to ake a deck to win, is not going against the spirit of the group

Your advice was, go with a low power deck and get your teeth kicked for a couple of weekends, well, I already did that and every time Kaalia was shuffled I got the focus anyway. So it didn't worked

Probably, in my playgroup there won't be really a "fair" way to build Kaalia and stand the 3:1 but I will keep trying.


The topic was about knowing cards less opresive than nevermore and meddling mage, I found a couple so great

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-11 1:00 pm 
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alexev wrote:
My starting builds are as fair as I can think, the thing is that my playgroup seems to focus me every time.

Whether your deck is fair is not at issue. It's whether your deck is fun (NO) and whether your deck requires immediate attention (YES).

alexev wrote:
The real game went, Kallia is cated and killed, Kaalia is casted and counetered, Kaalia player is deleted at turn 6.

Um... duh. You played freaking Kaalia. You sat down with a general that says "Every time this attacks, I get BS for free." In what world did you think that intelligent magic players would leave her alone and just focus on the free stuff she generates? It's WAY easier to eliminate the source of the river of BS than have to put up with it constantly.

I feel like you are incapable of seeing your decks the way your opponents see them.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-11 7:59 pm 
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alexev wrote:
My starting builds are as fair as I can think, the thing is that my playgroup seems to focus me every time.

In order to win or to at least be the last man standing I need to build the deck to be able to sustain a 3v1 fight.

Is not what I want, it is what I have.


Well of course they focus on you every time.

You have a deck that is able to sustain a 3v1 fight.

You built a deck that is so powerful it can contend with 3 other players simultaneously, and if they don't deal with it ASAP you both wall up and become invincible and shut down everything they can do to respond to you anyway, and then you win and they lose.

Of course they would see you as the most powerful. You can take on every player in a 3v1 fight and wall up and become invincible and shut down everyone else's game plan and win even against the combined forces of all three of them. You are the most powerful. You are as powerful as the three of them combined, if not moreso.

If you don't want that, don't build a deck that powerful. If you build that, you're asking for it. If you built it in response to their attacking toward you, you reinforced what they were doing. It is now at the point where your deck is the cause of what is happening. In a 4-player game you will lose the game somehow about 75% of the time, like Uktabi Kong said. Build for that.

You've been given advice previously in this thread about how to de-escalate and resolve the situation with your fellow players so you neither have to have a 3v1 deck nor get focused on so hard by your fellow players. If you don't want the situation you're in, follow that advice: speak to your players about the situation, listen to their perspective, share your own, and rebuild your deck.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-12 2:55 am 

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spacemonaut wrote:

You built a deck that is so powerful it can contend with 3 other players simultaneously, and if they don't deal with it ASAP you both wall up and become invincible and shut down everything they can do to respond to you anyway, and then you win and they lose.

Of course they would see you as the most powerful. You can take on every player in a 3v1 fight and wall up and become invincible and shut down everyone else's game plan and win even against the combined forces of all three of them. You are the most powerful. You are as powerful as the three of them combined, if not moreso.


Is the egg and the chicken dilemma, I build my decks to be fair, fun and not capable of 3v1 from the start, but if I see that the games end up in 2 or 3v1 every time, I need to power things up because I also build my decks to win.


Sid the Chicken wrote:

alexev wrote:
The real game went, Kallia is cated and killed, Kaalia is casted and counetered, Kaalia player is deleted at turn 6.

Um... duh. You played freaking Kaalia. You sat down with a general that says "Every time this attacks, I get BS for free." In what world did you think that intelligent magic players would leave her alone and just focus on the free stuff she generates? It's WAY easier to eliminate the source of the river of BS than have to put up with it constantly.
.


In my playgroup people play (Not me), Narset, enlightened master , Jeleeva nephalia scourge, alesha , who smiles at death,breya, etherium shaper, atraxa praetor's voice, Mairsil the pretender, Niv-Mizzet, marchesa the black rose, Meren of clan nel toth

You say those commanders are less powerful than Kaalia of the vast? you say that droppping for free an Avacyn angel of hope is far more powerfull than narset casting for free 1-2 planeswalkers? while having all their mana open for answers? (because let me remind you narset is in blue and can protect herself not like kaalia).

I want to make my decks works, and as I say several times, I don't mind to be the archenemy, I just dont want to be the archenemy without having the actual tools to be one.

Kaalia is seemed as more powerful than she actually is, if she were really that OP my winrate with her would be nuts, and if I recall correctly I have NEVER won a single game in 4 ppl table, and the 1-2 games I won was a in a 3 ppl table so instead of 3 opponents I got 2 and that difference was enough to win 2 of 10 games.

Kaalia lacks blue and his tools for defense are 'nasty' , in my current build I will try among other things Magus of the moat to try to survive, I will play Serra ascendant again to try to survive long enough, and I am also considering running beacon of immortality which is absurdly bad normally but if I get at 12-15 life at turn 6-7 I may be able to resuscitate from the dead to play a couple more turns.

My frustration with Kaalia is this (I will compare her with Oloro, Ageless ascetic, both in the worst scenarios)

Oloro in worst case scenario: I have a control deck, my gameplan is to survive, dodge attacks, gain life and card advantaje, get rid of problems if they are pointing at me, at some point drop a wincon like luminarch ascension and start winning.

Even If I am the first player to be killed, I can assure you that with that deck I will always develop part of my plan, I will drop some enchants, maybe some board wipes, the game won't go the way I want but I will always be doing what my decks wants to do even in the loss.

Kaalia worst case: This is a beatdown deck, wants to get Kaalia at turn 4-6 attacking and droping an overcosted creature like Avacyn, arcangel of hope, Hellkite tyrant, balefire dragon, Utvara hellkite , etc. and gain with the advantage I can get from those creatures and beating faces.

9 of 10 times, All I can do with my deck is playing lands, mana rocks and an enchant, I need to pack huge ammounts of fast mana rocks and tricks like dark ritual in order to at least be able to hardcast some of my stuff.

I normally get deleted by turn 6-8 and every single removal, counter and stax card is pointed at me, and when the game ends (for me) I was not able to do what the deck wants to do.

And all this without a single infinite combo in Kaalia just to not piss people off, I am confident that in some point, I will be able to build a consistent Kaalia deck that can do what the deck wants to do even if she loose.

I won-t mind having a 99% loss rate if at least Kaalia can do her magic a couple of times in the game

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-12 10:55 am 
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alexev wrote:
In my playgroup people play (Not me), Narset, enlightened master , Jeleeva nephalia scourge, alesha , who smiles at death,breya, etherium shaper, atraxa praetor's voice, Mairsil the pretender, Niv-Mizzet, marchesa the black rose, Meren of clan nel toth

You say those commanders are less powerful than Kaalia of the vast?

Kaalia is like a hemorrhoid. She's irritating and painful, but she's not the worst thing that can happen to you. But there's also the old saying about the tall nail getting hammered down. By her nature Kaalia looks to become a threat early... hence she becomes the tallest nail and must be hammered down. Permanently.

As for that list, the only one even remotely similar is Narset, who if done well is very obnoxious as well. And for the record, putting a couple walkers out is FAR from the most obnoxious thing Narset does. And far weaker than dropping Avacyn out of nowhere, to be frank. The rest of that list can be great commanders but they're far more grindy and slow, especially if you're avoiding obvious infinite combos like Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-12 12:02 pm 
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alexev wrote:
My first Kaalia build was really bad (bad on purpose) I played a lot of dragons and angels no other Kaalia deck would play because they are plain bad.


alexev wrote:
if she were really that OP my winrate with her would be nuts, and if I recall correctly I have NEVER won a single game in 4 ppl table, and the 1-2 games I won was a in a 3 ppl table so instead of 3 opponents I got 2 and that difference was enough to win 2 of 10 games.


Except, it wasn't. And you didn't. Isn't that the same deck from This Thread

Were you say

alexev wrote:
we have played 1v1 several times and in those cases the Kaalia winrate was 100%, so they have an unreal perception of her power.


Your Kaalia deck isn't "bad" (and certainly not on purpose), it is simply bad for multiplayer because it is built like a French Commander 1:1 deck. It's a combo-rific nightmare that simply doesn't keep up with 3:1 hate it deserves.

However, that thread has all the info you need to make a viable, playable Kaalia deck for a 4 to 6 person game (that can get some plays in and not die before Turn 8 every game), so I won't re-kick that horse (more).

alexev wrote:
Is the egg and the chicken dilemma, I build my decks to be fair, fun and not capable of 3v1 from the start, but if I see that the games end up in 2 or 3v1 every time, I need to power things up because I also build my decks to win.


Until you start really accepting what we are telling you and realize that escalation will only make things worse, you will never get past this problem. De-escalate the decks. Re-read some Sheldon Articles. Build for fun, play to win (not build to win, maybe have fun playing). Throttle down on the good stuff in your deck; maybe go for a theme or two.

Conversely, try switching to a less controversial General for a month or two, then come back and try again with Kaalia and Oloro (hint: Rafiq, Zur, Uril, Captain Sisay, Maelstrom Wanderer and Karador are not less controversial)

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: What is the best way to prevent a Gaddock teeg lock?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-12 12:18 pm 

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Treamayne wrote:
alexev wrote:
My first Kaalia build was really bad (bad on purpose) I played a lot of dragons and angels no other Kaalia deck would play because they are plain bad.


alexev wrote:
if she were really that OP my winrate with her would be nuts, and if I recall correctly I have NEVER won a single game in 4 ppl table, and the 1-2 games I won was a in a 3 ppl table so instead of 3 opponents I got 2 and that difference was enough to win 2 of 10 games.


Except, it wasn't. And you didn't. Isn't that the same deck from This Thread

Were you say

alexev wrote:
we have played 1v1 several times and in those cases the Kaalia winrate was 100%, so they have an unreal perception of her power.


Your Kaalia deck isn't "bad" (and certainly not on purpose), it is simply bad for multiplayer because it is built like a French Commander 1:1 deck. It's a combo-rific nightmare that simply doesn't keep up with 3:1 hate it deserves.

However, that thread has all the info you need to make a viable, playable Kaalia deck for a 4 to 6 person game (that can get some plays in and not die before Turn 8 every game), so I won't re-kick that horse (more).

alexev wrote:
Is the egg and the chicken dilemma, I build my decks to be fair, fun and not capable of 3v1 from the start, but if I see that the games end up in 2 or 3v1 every time, I need to power things up because I also build my decks to win.


Until you start really accepting what we are telling you and realize that escalation will only make things worse, you will never get past this problem. De-escalate the decks. Re-read some Sheldon Articles. Build for fun, play to win (not build to win, maybe have fun playing). Throttle down on the good stuff in your deck; maybe go for a theme or two.

Conversely, try switching to a less controversial General for a month or two, then come back and try again with Kaalia and Oloro (hint: Rafiq, Zur, Uril, Captain Sisay, Maelstrom Wanderer and Karador are not less controversial)



The decklist you link is updated with my last list, not with the original multiplayer list I made first when I started playing.

Trust me, that first list was BAD, I had 20 creatures, angels, dragons adn deamons not other kaalia deck would run because they are big but bad

Now I am trying a new list wich I haven-t updated.

I played several times with a low powered kaalia deck and and got my a** kicked every time, so I tried already the 'low power' stuff and didn't worked in my group.

I am stubborn and I know I would en up building a viable Kaalia deck for multiplayer but maybe it will still take a while.

Meanwhile that is not a problem for my playgroup because if I fail to do that (like I have been so far) I will keep losing so.. no harm done.

And if I eventuatly came up with a decklist that allows me to consintently sustain a fight and eventualy win, then great!!! Achievemnt unlocked, it won-t be the only deck I would play.

When people say 'build another EDH with another commander' I feel they may not be aware how much time, effort and money some people invest in building the deck and is reasonable that we have expectations about it. I want to make Kaalia work well, I won't cut Iona, Shield of emeria or Avacyn, angel of hope or Utvara Hellkite I want to make them work.

And for Oloro, I don-t need to switch, he is my 'revenge' deck , is the only deck I manage to build that can hold the 3v1 situation consistently, so I will play Kaalia and die at T6-8 then play oloro and win or loose turn 16-20 and If I win will play Kaalia again so they can work out the 3:1 and repeate the cycle until the day I manage to build a good Kaalia deck and that day wel, I will start building my 3rd deck

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


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