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 Post subject: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 2:04 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
so the "ban cyclonic rift" thread got me to thinking, and im gonna just throw out there how i prepare for bomby non-permanents, when i'm not playing blue, and then other people can feel free to chime in because i know i havent thought of everything. I play a crapload of monocolored decks and here is how i deal:

white-
whte has a few dumb counters if you know where to look.
Dawn Charm - hard counter for stuff pointed at you and a fog.
Frontline Medic - counters insane x spells
lapse of certainty - stall for an answer from another player
mana tithe - if someone taps out to blow you (or everyone out)
rebuff the wicked - protect your stuff
vigilant martyr - only protects enchantments, but still nice with the right theme

black - less options but still a few strong counters and a wierd fork effect or 2
muck drubb - removal snagger, he eats concrete isntead of your good stuff
imp's mischief - black swerve at a cost
deathgrip - i consider blue and green to be the best colors in commander, this counters genesis wave and other insane stuff.

red - red cant counter spells...unless they are blue, but it can steal, change targets, copy and punish
red elemental blast and pyroblast - i auto include these in mono red decks, almost always useful
fork and frinds - cant counter a spell, have yourself one also
parallectric feedback - a spell is removed from the stack if the player dies. there's a split one from amonkhet too, but i think its part blue

green:
avoid fate - niche but nice

colorless and multi -
Guttural Response - reb #3
null brooch - desperate but effective
not of this world - protect the fatties
ring of immortals - costly in mana and money, but saves you from tricks
warping wail - counters sorceries, but kinda its own color with the colorless cost. pack your sol rings ladies and gents

anyone have other cards they use to handle spells outside blue? doesnt have to counter, just make other players less happy about thier exsanguinate or genesis wave or cyclonic rift


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 11:57 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-25 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
These might be a little more niche, but can still counter.

Lifeforce
Mages' Contest
Dash Hopes (but the chances of them NOT paying 5 life is slim...)
Molten Influence (same as Dash Hopes)
Order of the Sacred Torch
Burnout (very niche...)
Stromgald Cabal
Unyaro Griffin
Withering Boon

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 12:12 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
archmagemc wrote:
These might be a little more niche, but can still counter.

Lifeforce
Mages' Contest
Dash Hopes (but the chances of them NOT paying 5 life is slim...)
Molten Influence (same as Dash Hopes)
Order of the Sacred Torch
Burnout (very niche...)
Stromgald Cabal
Unyaro Griffin
Withering Boon


i use most of these on rare occasion. i play withering boon all the time, but it doesnt really hit instants and sorceries


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 12:18 am 
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Shoe wrote:
i use most of these on rare occasion. i play withering boon all the time, but it doesnt really hit instants and sorceries


True, but it does hit almost all the Commanders, Craterhoof Behemoth, Maelstrom Wander, Laboratory Maniac, etc :D

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 2:15 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Sundial of the Infinite - doesn't counter permission, and can only be used to counter other instants played on your turn (usually removal) and effectively fogs you out.
Teferi's Protection - doesn't counter the spell itself but usually makes it so that any spells your opponents cast can't effect you.
Mandate of Peace - can only counter spells cast during combat, also effectively fogs and ends your opponent's turn (if played during their combat).

Gaddock Teeg
Sanctum Prelate
Nullstone Gargoyle

Praetor's Grasp - tutor for your opponents' permission spells; can be difficult to acquire the UU necessary to cast whatever you find but maybe you're also running Vivid lands and/or Chromatic Lantern, if not maybe you get lucky with an opponent who runs Mindbreak Trap and another opponent playing a storm archetype.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury - similar to Praetor's Grasp but not as effective at tutoring, because you only look at the top four, but because it's a creature and you're in black you should have no trouble reusing that EtB several times. It has the advantage that you can cast Mana Drain from it without any blue.
Shoe wrote:
fork and frinds - cant counter a spell, have yourself one also
These effects can counter a spell if that spell is permission (and isn't Last Word, Counterflux, Dovin's Veto, or Summary Dismissal).


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 12:31 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Idk cyclonic rift feels more like a bar test to see who’s is good at the game more then an actual headache. Not saying I’m a professional card slinger, but I feel the card can be outplayed just by knowing it exist, seeing how much mana an opponent has and playing around it. The same is done already with most counterspells or removal. If I force my opponent to use it early game they can’t try to win with it. If most of all my cards have flash they can’t stop actually answer my board. If I sac all my creatures and bring them back with lifeline they effectively did nothing and only helped me win the game. Btw all the enter the battlefield abilities and it being not an actual wrath makes it a poor choice for removal. I play it because it can remove enchantments and it’s versitle for different turns in the game, but evacuation wasn’t a huge issue so neither should this be.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 9:10 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Thraximundar wrote:
Idk cyclonic rift feels more like a bar test to see who’s is good at the game more then an actual headache. Not saying I’m a professional card slinger, but I feel the card can be outplayed just by knowing it exist, seeing how much mana an opponent has and playing around it. The same is done already with most counterspells or removal. If I force my opponent to use it early game they can’t try to win with it. If most of all my cards have flash they can’t stop actually answer my board. If I sac all my creatures and bring them back with lifeline they effectively did nothing and only helped me win the game. Btw all the enter the battlefield abilities and it being not an actual wrath makes it a poor choice for removal. I play it because it can remove enchantments and it’s versitle for different turns in the game, but evacuation wasn’t a huge issue so neither should this be.


i was talking about bomby non-permanents in general, rift just got me thinking about iy


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 4:29 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Shoe wrote:

i was talking about bomby non-permanents in general, rift just got me thinking about iy


Spells that copy or change target on the stack seem to work best.

If you copy a tormant of hellfire you win the game before their spell resolves. Isn’t great vs rift but can be good vs most of the nutty big spells that’s being played.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-30 5:29 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Thraximundar wrote:
Shoe wrote:

i was talking about bomby non-permanents in general, rift just got me thinking about iy


Spells that copy or change target on the stack seem to work best.

If you copy a tormant of hellfire you win the game before their spell resolves. Isn’t great vs rift but can be good vs most of the nutty big spells that’s being played.


for red, and a tiny bit black, yes. what options do people use in other colors?


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 4:48 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Location: New Hampshire
Thraximundar wrote:
Isn’t great vs rift but can be good vs most of the nutty big spells that’s being played.

It does make the Rift symmetrical, so there's that. See also: Reins of Power.

Depending on the spell, Heroic Intervention can be good. Torpor Orb type effects can be a real difference maker as well, if the threat in question is something like Genesis Wave that seeks to vomit a huge boardstate - a lot of decks that want to do that are trying to milk value from ETB triggers. A few well-placed removal spells can also go a long way toward mitigating that damage - for example, if they Genwave for 30 and hit a haste source, blowing it up before combat can leave the door open for someone to resolve a sweeper.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 3:57 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Shoe wrote:
Thraximundar wrote:
Shoe wrote:

i was talking about bomby non-permanents in general, rift just got me thinking about iy


Spells that copy or change target on the stack seem to work best.

If you copy a tormant of hellfire you win the game before their spell resolves. Isn’t great vs rift but can be good vs most of the nutty big spells that’s being played.


for red, and a tiny bit black, yes. what options do people use in other colors?


Red had the best answers, but black still has imps mischief[\c]. Depends on the card depends on the deck.. like I said cards that are Bomby spells are easier to remove when you know the players you play against and how they are trying to win. Black can just peak into their library and remove cards from the game before they ever see the light of day. White has two or three counter spells but often they just prevent things from happening or being played. This is done by making yourself hexproof, exiling everything till EoT or making said spell hard to cast such as [c]rule of law.
Green doesn’t care and kinda goes the direction of white by making the stuff unplayable or getting draws from it. Blue has the best response, but it’s the least valueble one because you one for one more often then not or have to hold up lots of mana to get better counterspell value. Hell even colorless decks have warping wail and not of this world.

The most simple way to stop someone is to do one of three general things. Remove it from being playable; this can be done with taxing, chaos such as possibility storm or general board states that make it unplayable. Direct removal such as counter spells, re setting the target, or fizzling the spell using hexproof or removal of graves. Lastly you can just get rid of it before it’s played using discard and remove from library effects. which are also kinda in the unplayable or direct remova context but a bit different.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with spells outside blue
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 6:46 am 
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It depends on what they're doing with the spell. There are precious few answers for Cyclonic Rift, which is one of the reasons I think it's so popular. Even playing Seedtime in response doesn't really get you what you want.

Hallowed Moonlight shuts down Living Death, Genesis Wave, Primal Surge (there are quite a few others, but those three are the most common offenders). Most of the non-Cyclonic board-creep offenders.

Sometimes of my strategies are pro-active; I play Grand Abolisher so people can't play cards like Cyclonic Rift on my turn, and I have played Praetor's Grasp semi-frequently in the past (at worst, you can nab a cute answer, or a Sol Ring).

I've also started to consider Doomfall for some of my lists. It can answer something like a lone Sigarda or Avacyn (or even just be used as a vanilla edict), but, also if a player is holding a card for a suspiciously long time... maybe we can nab that?

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