Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 10:53 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-08 6:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
This discussion seems to me like a big ol' waste of time. I mean, what's the point at this point? No one wants to ban CR, only some people don't like it and would presumably like o put it on "gentlemans' ban list" next to Craterhoof, DEN and Tooth and Nail. Fine, do that, house rules FTW. What's that got to do with the rest of us that're absoultely fine with the card?

See you in the other threads, mates! :)

_________________
I could be wrong. I'm just not in the mood.
tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-09 4:26 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Antis wrote:
This discussion seems to me like a big ol' waste of time. I mean, what's the point at this point? No one wants to ban CR, only some people don't like it and would presumably like o put it on "gentlemans' ban list" next to Craterhoof, DEN and Tooth and Nail. Fine, do that, house rules FTW. What's that got to do with the rest of us that're absoultely fine with the card?

See you in the other threads, mates! :)

Sometimes the only point is to discuss varying opinions. It's been a fairly civil discussion compared to most.

I'm still interested to see Epsilon's lists with 35 average pieces of interaction for instance, because I'll learn something new about a meta that isn't my own and will probably be less perplexed when and if Epsilon discuss things in the future, because his meta would be so different to my average experience, it's no wonder we draw different conclusions about things.

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 1:45 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
Sometimes the only point is to discuss varying opinions. It's been a fairly civil discussion compared to most.

I'm still interested to see Epsilon's lists with 35 average pieces of interaction for instance, because I'll learn something new about a meta that isn't my own and will probably be less perplexed when and if Epsilon discuss things in the future, because his meta would be so different to my average experience, it's no wonder we draw different conclusions about things.


I don't have any current lists posted online but here's some older ones.

Here's an outdated Ephara list. There's probably 5-6 cards changed in the current build (including rift) but I would consider ~35-40 of that interactive or that directly interact with those interactive cards.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks/ephara-edh/

Here's a voltron/combo list... It's retired and still a bit outdated but still has 30-35 interactive cards.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... oreweaver/

Here's a Mono B Ob Nix list... Also retired but 35-40 here.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... b-nixilis/

Tribal goblins... Retired but 25-30.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... -mob-boss/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 2:40 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
Sometimes the only point is to discuss varying opinions. It's been a fairly civil discussion compared to most.

I'm still interested to see Epsilon's lists with 35 average pieces of interaction for instance, because I'll learn something new about a meta that isn't my own and will probably be less perplexed when and if Epsilon discuss things in the future, because his meta would be so different to my average experience, it's no wonder we draw different conclusions about things.
Fair enough, thanks for providing your point of view. I respect your opinion, sir :) Be free!

_________________
I could be wrong. I'm just not in the mood.
tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 4:33 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Epsilon wrote:
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
Sometimes the only point is to discuss varying opinions. It's been a fairly civil discussion compared to most.

I'm still interested to see Epsilon's lists with 35 average pieces of interaction for instance, because I'll learn something new about a meta that isn't my own and will probably be less perplexed when and if Epsilon discuss things in the future, because his meta would be so different to my average experience, it's no wonder we draw different conclusions about things.


I don't have any current lists posted online but here's some older ones.

Here's an outdated Ephara list. There's probably 5-6 cards changed in the current build (including rift) but I would consider ~35-40 of that interactive or that directly interact with those interactive cards.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks/ephara-edh/

Here's a voltron/combo list... It's retired and still a bit outdated but still has 30-35 interactive cards.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... oreweaver/

Here's a Mono B Ob Nix list... Also retired but 35-40 here.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... b-nixilis/

Tribal goblins... Retired but 25-30.
http://www.mtgvault.com/epsilon-2/decks ... -mob-boss/

Thanks for this, going through it now.

A quick look at the Ob Nix List and it's clear I was being very conservative and selling myself short on my numbers. I count 33 31 cards listed here as what I'd consider interaction.

Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Butcher of Malakir
Dread Cacodemon
Fleshbag Marauder
Havoc Demon
Hypnotic Specter
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Appetite for Brains
Ashes to Ashes
Black Sun's Zenith
Living Death
Mutilate
Profane Command
Syphon Mind
Imp's Mischief
Tragic Slip
Withering Boon
Kusari-Gama
Desolation
Enslave
Grave Pact
Tainted AEther
Bojuka Bog
Ghost Quarter
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Revelation
Nightmare Incursion
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Temporal Extortion

I can see how you might reach 35, but not 40 unless you clarify exactly what you mean by interaction.

If I go back to my Lazav list and apply a equal criteria that you have, I count 49 48 pieces of interaction (I originally counted average 20):

Reanimate
Praetor's Grasp
Memory Plunder
Body Double
Beacon of Unrest
Bribery
Spelltwine
Diluvian Primordial
Sepulchral Primordial
Extract
Rootwater Thief
Bitter Ordeal
Sadistic Sacrament
Grinning Totem
Jester's Cap
Nightmare Incursion
Wasteland Strangler
Murk Strider
Mind Raker
Ulamog's Nullifier
Notion Thief
Sire of Stagnation
Cyclonic Rift
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Hero's Downfall
River's Grasp
Glen Elendra Archmage
Damnation
Insidious Will
Cryptic Command
Mystic Confluence
Noxious Gearhulk
Duplicant
Life's Finale
Deadly Tempest
Tormod's Crypt
Planar Void
Shred Memory
Agent of Erebos
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Dark Petition
Bojuka Bog
Dust Bowl
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter

I'm not trying to have a dick measuring contest here, I just want to understand. I think it's clear however, that we both run "enough" interaction I guess?

EDIT: Changed 33 for Ob Nix to 31 and 49 to 48 for Lazav because I fail at spreadsheets.

EDIT 2: For instance, do I count Eternal Witness as interaction, since like a tutor it can get back a piece of it? If yes, then ya, I definitely run more then enough interaction. My average across my 3 lists are 40 pieces of interaction.

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 5:10 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah there's a big difference between 20 and 50 LOL

I obviously included a few things you didn't in my count since Persist and Undying mess with opposing removal as well as double up ETBs on the interactive creatures along with some other cards but at least we're on the same page more or less.

That's a lot of extract effects though... I understand the interaction with Lazav and Processors but if you're counting those, you should also be counting things like Altar of Dementia in my list.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 5:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Epsilon wrote:
Yeah there's a big difference between 20 and 50 LOL

I obviously included a few things you didn't in my count since Persist and Undying mess with opposing removal as well as double up ETBs on the interactive creatures along with some other cards but at least we're on the same page more or less.

That's a lot of extract effects though... I understand the interaction with Lazav and Processors but if you're counting those, you should also be counting things like Altar of Dementia in my list.

Sweet, the numbers are roughly close enough for comparison ya, even if I cut back the extract effects, but added in recursion (5 more pieces), I'd still hit the same average.

If you include things like Persist and Undying, then Kalemne goes from 31 pieces to 40 pieces of interaction. So all up, my average across 3 lists has now hit 40-43, lower end accounting for what we both might consider contentious cards. Taking the remaining lists you posted at face value, your average is 32-33.

Moral of the story and this exercise is, we both run "enough" interaction.

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 9:46 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Summarized in around 1 sentence, what's the problem with cyclonic rift? Is it that it is overplayed and therefor boring? Also it does too much for too little effort?

I really don't see why those things are problematic. Isn't not liking something because everyone else does the definition of being a hipster?

It seems to me that the problem here doesn't really have anything to do with the card and more to do with this hipster mindset. The only way I can think of overcoming the problem is to find a like minded group of players and coordinate deck building so that people don't play too many of the same cards.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 10:02 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Perhaps you could instigate a house rule of ultimate singleton. Each person is allowed to use only one of any card across all decks they own.

That or Rochester draft the eternal cardset (to 150 cards each or something) meaning that there can be only one of any card within a group. I believe Sheldon did something like this and wrote articles about it. A wonderful human has located and linked them below.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 10:22 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
MrCool wrote:
Summarized in around 1 sentence, what's the problem with cyclonic rift? Is it that it is overplayed and therefor boring? Also it does too much for too little effort?

I really don't see why those things are problematic. Isn't not liking something because everyone else does the definition of being a hipster?

It seems to me that the problem here doesn't really have anything to do with the card and more to do with this hipster mindset. The only way I can think of overcoming the problem is to find a like minded group of players and coordinate deck building so that people don't play too many of the same cards.


It is overplayed and boring and it does too much for too little effort (both in relation to deckbuilding and playability), yes.

I'm not even looking for a solution to the card, I run it in many of my blue lists too. I'll even call myself a hypocrite for it. That doesn't change anything about the nature of the card though.

I don't like the hipster analogy either. People complain about a lot of different overused cards in different contexts and different degrees. This discussion literally centered around whether or not Cyclonic Rift fit into that 1 sentence category of cards, that's it. The consensus seems to be, even from many of those in favour of Rift, that it does, but the consensus also seems to be that it isn't a problem, which many if not most of the anti-Rift players agree with as well.

So for the most part, ya, we're all roughly on the same page about Rift. Except maybe Epsilon, not trying to call him out personally, just that I just don't know if any counter arguments changed his overall opinion or not. He was pretty vehement that Rift wasn't overplayed, and if anybody had a problem with the card, they (or their meta) needed to play more interaction. A lot of the discussion centered around trying to refute his claims.

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 11:12 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
I guess I don't find Rift annoying because I don't generally mind being hit by one. When that happens, I lose my stuff, sure, but so do all other players minus one. So another player's Rift is good for me, too (if they don't win on the spot, OFC). And we all get to play that stuff again, possibly getting some ETB triggers out of it etc. etc. Now that I think about it, it very well could be a metagame difference. 90% of the times I see it cast, Rift is just another sweeper, in between player A's Austere Command and player B's Oblivion Stone.

About the overusage, let's face it, color combinations like Izzet don't have that many options, do they?

_________________
I could be wrong. I'm just not in the mood.
tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 12:16 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
I think I had a little flash of insight about Rift the other night. It is a weird card because it is treading in a liminal space between utility and haymaker. Few people care about utility cards getting overplayed: I'm sure Solemn Simulacrum and Eternal Witness are among the most played cards in the format and nobody talks shit about them. People get really tired of seeing the same haymakers over and over, though, even the fair ones.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the split between the "Rift is NBD" people and the "I dislike Rift" people is just whether they are more inclined to count it as a utility spell or as a haymaker.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 12:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
JJackson wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the split between the "Rift is NBD" people and the "I dislike Rift" people is just whether they are more inclined to count it as a utility spell or as a haymaker.
I believe you are right.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 3:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Summarized in around 1 sentence, what's the problem with cyclonic rift? Is it that it is overplayed and therefor boring? Also it does too much for too little effort?

I really don't see why those things are problematic.

It really depends on what that 'too much' level is, compared to effort.

No, i am not arguing Rift is bannable, but Tolarian Academy does too much for too little effort. Coalition Victory does too much or too little effort.

The banning criteria for both of those are different and not called "does too much", but that's what it is, no?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More CyclonicRift Discussion??
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 6:33 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
The banning criteria for both of those are different and not called "does too much", but that's what it is, no?
This is similar to "everything is Kicker." So, Yeah. You're right. Everything is reducible to "does too much." But that doesn't actually tell you anything.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Spectrar Ghost and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: